Foresight Obesity System Map

Can you explain how high cholesterol causes heart attacks? My Cardiologist couldn't give me a rational description. The advocates of the cholesterol hypothesis keep changing the claimed "mechanism" each time is proved wrong, hence the talk now of such crazy ideas as "fluffy LDL"...

Cholesterol is essential to life, an inconvenient fact for those now saying that we should all seem to reduce our cholesterol level regardless what it actually is.

Below 5 used to be considered normal.

My Cardiologist said I should be on full dose station if my LDL level exceeded 1.4!

Is the drug industry driving the cholesterol myth because they earn so much from it.

As I understand it, cholesterol doesn't cause heart attacks- it can't. Cholesterols are important molecules that are essential to life because they are a major constituent of cell membranes. The levels of these molecules in the blood vary from person to person. It's impossible to avoid consuming cholesterol as they are near ubiquitous molecules. It is true some foods contain different ratios but I don't know what the optimum is. I am sceptical of a lot of science that is in any way related to food as food production and manufacture is a big and highly lucrative industry and they know that any kind of health angle sells product.

I don't know if the full mechanism that causes atherosclerosis is properly understood. I know that it involves inflammation of the lining of the arteries and arterioles, and that in reality it is a calcium kind of build up in the arteries that causes them to narrow in a serious and potentially catastrophic way.
 

Derrick Hughes

Member
Location
Ceredigion
Don't be so sure. :confused:

I had zero symptoms before my heart attack. Zero. 12 hours earlier I was de-horning stuckler calves, as energetic as contact sport, with zero shortness of breath of or chest ache. 15 hours later the Cardiologist doing my angioplasty told me I had 70% coronary atherosclerosis.
I had zero symptoms
But I was not getting regular check ups
How are you now and did you change anything after
 

holwellcourtfarm

Member
Livestock Farmer
As I understand it, cholesterol doesn't cause heart attacks- it can't. Cholesterols are important molecules that are essential to life because they are a major constituent of cell membranes. The levels of these molecules in the blood vary from person to person. It's impossible to avoid consuming cholesterol as they are near ubiquitous molecules. It is true some foods contain different ratios but I don't know what the optimum is. I am sceptical of a lot of science that is in any way related to food as food production and manufacture is a big and highly lucrative industry and they know that any kind of health angle sells product.

I don't know if the full mechanism that causes atherosclerosis is properly understood. I know that it involves inflammation of the lining of the arteries and arterioles, and that in reality it is a calcium kind of build up in the arteries that causes them to narrow in a serious and potentially catastrophic way.
Absolutely.

Unless you have extreme hypercholesterolaemia, levels of 10 or 20, then it is just a natural blood component which your body is regulating.

The "evidence" for it causing CHD doesn't stand up to test.

Just like all the "studies" that have found red meat consumption causes CHD. None of them are robust once you really examine their methods. A typical trial participant in the red meat consuming group is eating regular fast food so very likely also inactive, smoking, eating high levels of carbohydrate, heavy drinking etc. Possibly even greater likelihood of using recreational drugs?

None of these things can be "statistically controlled for".....
 
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holwellcourtfarm

Member
Livestock Farmer
I had zero symptoms
But I was not getting regular check ups
How are you now and did you change anything after
I haven't had a repeat coronary angiogram so can't say what my coronary arteries are like now. I did have a heart MRI last summer which greatly downgraded the risk rating they had given me from echocardiograms.

I intend to pay for a full sports fitness assessment later this spring to get a picture of how fit I am now before deciding how big a farm to take on when we move.

I challenged my Cardiologist to explain why I had my heart attack in the first place and he just blustered about my cholesterol level then admitted he didn't know. He was adamant that I should be on 80mg atorvastatin and full dose ACE inhibitors and Beta blockers for life though, despite them causing me to fall over from hypotension and bradycardia even on 1/4 dose. 🤬
 

Derrick Hughes

Member
Location
Ceredigion
I haven't had a repeat coronary angiogram so can't say what my coronary arteries are like now. I did have a heart MRI last summer which greatly downgraded the risk rating they had given me from echocardiograms.

I intend to pay for a full sports fitness assessment later this spring to get a picture of how fit I am now before deciding how big a farm to take on when we move.

I challenged my Cardiologist to explain why I had my heart attack in the first place and he just blustered about my cholesterol level then admitted he didn't know. He was adamant that I should be on 80mg atorvastatin and full dose ACE inhibitors and Beta blockers for life though, despite them causing me to fall over from hypotension and bradycardia even on 1/4 dose. 🤬
What was your diet like before and now ?
They did say that diet was only part of the story , although apart from family history I did not tick any of the other boxes
 

holwellcourtfarm

Member
Livestock Farmer
What was your diet like before and now ?
They did say that diet was only part of the story , although apart from family history I did not tick any of the other boxes
I did eat way too much sugar. Typically 100g of milk chocolate, 4 slices of bread and spuds or pasta or rice most days. Cake 2 or 3 times a week. 1 or 2 packets of crisps a week. Plenty of fruit and veg though. All meals were home cooked. Pre-pandemic we ate out once a month.

10 years further back, in my EA days, I'd often eat a supermarket sandwich and 5 jam doughnuts for lunch then have 200g of milk chocolate in the evening. I did so much walking I told myself I was burning it off. I'd swapped butter for Benecol spread and blue top milk for green on doctors advice and thought I was healthy. We ate out 2 or 3 times a week, albeit at a proper restaraunt, and had take out once a week.

I now eat zero chocolate, even at Christmas, rarely eat cake and limit myself to 2 slices of wholemeal bread a day and spuds / pasta / rice no more than 3 times a week. I eat more veg, swapped from spreads back to butter and lard, swapped skimmed milk for full fat and eat much more cheese. I no longer snack between meals and skip breakfast some days. Rarely eat out, rarely buy take aways (maybe 1 every 8 weeks) and all our meals are cooked from scratch by by Mel or me.

I fell from 83kg to 75kg in the 3 days I was in hospital (April 2020) and I've remained at 75kg ever since, give or take 500g.

My only ticks in the risk boxes were cholesterol 6.2 (I've already discounted that one) and family history of heart attacks. Dad's brother died of one at 52, nearly 40 years ago but he ticked most of the high risk boxes (sedentary, smoked, schizophrenic, terrible diet, overweight etc). Mum's brother had a heart attack leading to full cardiac arrest at 51 with no warning, 30 years ago, and is fit and active today (but he was very fit and active then too).

They did find a small heart valve defect in me which could apparently cause clots to form. I now think I was just bloody unlucky that a tiny clot from that ended up blocking my coronary artery.
 

DaveGrohl

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Cumbria
The artery wall damage theory seems sound.

How does high trigylcerides or cholesterol cause that though?

I had a sum cholesterol level around 6.2 mmol/l but none of those other "causes".

Inflammation is most likely the original cause of the damage leading to clots forming then the epithelium growing over them.

Anything which causes inflammation is bad news:

Blood sugar spikes
Diabetes (because of above plus it disrupts some key endocrine function)
Smoking
Serious mental health episodes
Cocaine use (raises CHD risk massively)
NSAIDs (Ibuprofen etc)
Steroids
Ibuprofen etc CAUSE inflammation? That’s a new one on me, they’re supposed to reduce inflammation? Must be a different TYPE of inflammation (artery rather than joint)?
 

DaveGrohl

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Cumbria

Causes​

Although the exact cause is unknown, atherosclerosis may start with damage or injury to the inner layer of an artery. The damage may be caused by:
  • High blood pressure
  • High cholesterol
  • High triglycerides, a type of fat (lipid) in your blood
  • Smoking and other sources of tobacco
  • Insulin resistance, obesity or diabetes
  • Inflammation from diseases, such as arthritis, lupus or infections, or inflammation of unknown cause
Once the inner wall of an artery is damaged, blood cells and other substances often clump at the injury site and build up in the inner lining of the artery.
Over time, fatty deposits (plaques) made of cholesterol and other cellular products also build up at the injury site and harden, narrowing your arteries. The organs and tissues connected to the blocked arteries then don't receive enough blood to function properly.

:unsure:
Where's that from? Healthline or Mayo Clinic or one of the other usual page 1 google sources? As long as you emphasise the "may" there then it’s not the worst list.
 

Ffermer Bach

Member
Livestock Farmer
I find that amazing. She must be the first PT on the planet to say that, every other PT will try to convince you of the opposite because they want you to fall under their spell.
our micro biome also effects how many of the calories we absorb from the food we take in, all made more complicated by the fact that the food we eat affects the make up of our micro biome. I am pretty sure they have given slim mice the contents of human micro biome from slim and fat people, and the mice either stay slim or get fat (while on the same diet)
 

Ffermer Bach

Member
Livestock Farmer
That's the trouble. A "Big Mac meal" isn't a problem as an occasional indulgence but I know of people making it their daily choice....

Their justification is that it's easy and cheap. Sadly, there's nothing cheap about having T2D or morbid obesity (made even worse when they get Deliveroo or Just Eat to do the leg work).
I think we just have to look at the film super size me, to see what happens when on a Mc Donnalds diet
 

DaveGrohl

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Cumbria
Can you explain how high cholesterol causes heart attacks? My Cardiologist couldn't give me a rational description. The advocates of the cholesterol hypothesis keep changing the claimed "mechanism" each time is proved wrong, hence the talk now of such crazy ideas as "fluffy LDL"...

Cholesterol is essential to life, an inconvenient fact for those now saying that we should all seem to reduce our cholesterol level regardless what it actually is.

Below 5 used to be considered normal.

My Cardiologist said I should be on full dose station if my LDL level exceeded 1.4!

Is the drug industry driving the cholesterol myth because they earn so much from it.
It’s the damage to the LDL by glycation/oxidation (caused by high blood glucose levels) that causes the receptors in the liver to be unable to pick them up for recycling that could be a big part of the problem. You end up with too many damaged particles floating around instead of "healthy" particles.

The whole process of plaque formation is fascinating once you start looking into it and where cholesterol "fits" into it. First page of google isn’t a great place to start though, as you know.
 

sjt01

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
North Norfolk
our micro biome also effects how many of the calories we absorb from the food we take in, all made more complicated by the fact that the food we eat affects the make up of our micro biome. I am pretty sure they have given slim mice the contents of human micro biome from slim and fat people, and the mice either stay slim or get fat (while on the same diet)
see
1641806993731.png
 

Ffermer Bach

Member
Livestock Farmer
Exactly, everyone is focused on diet, but the biggest difference between now and the past is lack of activity nowadays.
son had a fit bit watch for this birthday. He is a bit of a techie by the way. Anyway, we were going to plonk the farm (which takes almost 2 hours of walking), so had a coffee and bit of cake first, then went out plonking. Anyway, after we got back, James said, we took all that time to walk off the cake we had eaten for bait!

Obesity is a hormonal problem, due to insulin from the amount of sugar and carbs we now consume.

Eating an orange - good, drinking a freshly squeezed orange juice - bad (the fibre in the fruit, that ameliorates the affect of the fructose has been smashed up)
 

Exfarmer

Member
Location
Bury St Edmunds
I am constantly amazed that farmers of all people and particularly livestock farmers can get taken in by trendy myths about foods. We all know our livestock will perform well on a high calorie diet and badly on a low calorie and this always hold true unless there is an anabolic or disease issue. And by disease I include the numerous worms that may be present in the animal.
This feed factor in ruminants can be confused by the administration of antibiotics. These same antibiotics will often increase performance in non ruminants through a more efficient gut performance.
It is human nature to excuse perceived non social conformance, by any number of reasons, but like smoking, drinking, diet , even sexual peccadilloes on any number of factors except the simple fact that this person wants themselves to be perceived as victims of their issue, rather than owning up to the fact that they just like eating , drinking s*****g which is by rights nature, when these things are on offer.
 

Exfarmer

Member
Location
Bury St Edmunds
son had a fit bit watch for this birthday. He is a bit of a techie by the way. Anyway, we were going to plonk the farm (which takes almost 2 hours of walking), so had a coffee and bit of cake first, then went out plonking. Anyway, after we got back, James said, we took all that time to walk off the cake we had eaten for bait!

Obesity is a hormonal problem, due to insulin from the amount of sugar and carbs we now consume.

Eating an orange - good, drinking a freshly squeezed orange juice - bad (the fibre in the fruit, that ameliorates the affect of the fructose has been smashed up)
This is exactly the problem we face, the complete failure of people to recognise that obesity is caused by our diet, too much of it Obesity causes hormone issues not the other way round!
Obesity caused by hormones is an issue of the thyroid which is easily diagnosed but not common at all.
 

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
I am constantly amazed that farmers of all people and particularly livestock farmers can get taken in by trendy myths about foods. We all know our livestock will perform well on a high calorie diet and badly on a low calorie and this always hold true unless there is an anabolic or disease issue. And by disease I include the numerous worms that may be present in the animal.
This feed factor in ruminants can be confused by the administration of antibiotics. These same antibiotics will often increase performance in non ruminants through a more efficient gut performance.
It is human nature to excuse perceived non social conformance, by any number of reasons, but like smoking, drinking, diet , even sexual peccadilloes on any number of factors except the simple fact that this person wants themselves to be perceived as victims of their issue, rather than owning up to the fact that they just like eating , drinking s*****g which is by rights nature, when these things are on offer.


Considering what a physical job its supposed to be Im amazed by how overweight many farmers seem to be ? you would think its a job almost guaranteed to keep you fit
 

Bury the Trash

Member
Mixed Farmer
Considering what a physical job its supposed to be Im amazed by how overweight many farmers seem to be ? you would think its a job almost guaranteed to keep you fit
Atv's have made farmers and workers fatter and theres far less manual work nowadays even hand tools are replaced by cordless ie spinning off big nuts :sneaky: use far less calories with wrench /spanner /socket than using a millwacky cracky
 

Ffermer Bach

Member
Livestock Farmer
This is exactly the problem we face, the complete failure of people to recognise that obesity is caused by our diet, too much of it Obesity causes hormone issues not the other way round!
Obesity caused by hormones is an issue of the thyroid which is easily diagnosed but not common at all.
I am calling insulin resistance and overproduction a hormonal issue, and this is related to our consumption of white bread, pasta, rice and sugar
 

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