Is handling now permitted?

Roy Stokes · Jan 20, 2018

Harry, you can go on until you are blue in the face or you draw your last breath but the above is what ploughing is all about, yes competitive but look at these 3 lads having a good time, sharing a joke and catching up with news after the winter break, this photo warms ones heart, life is too short, especially at your age, smile once in a while, and maybe the sun will shine on you for the rest of your days

Ley253 · Jan 20, 2018

Sadly Roy, its not like that in our class as is evidenced by Fred`s posting of the photo and the implication in the "glass houses" byline. We are of course civil to each other, even those who are not so deserving! Tragedy is, they are so good, they really dont need to carry on in this manner, and if they got used to staying on the tractor, I am sure they would fare better in matches where they cant massage the work.
Organisers expect ploughmen to do their best, and pay to do it! is it not natural for us to expect them to at least enforce their own rules?

Roy Stokes · Jan 20, 2018

Ley253 said:
Sadly Roy, its not like that in our class as is evidenced by Fred`s posting of the photo and the implication in the "glass houses" byline. We are of course civil to each other, even those who are not so deserving! Tragedy is, they are so good, they really dont need to carry on in this manner, and if they got used to staying on the tractor, I am sure they would fare better in matches where they cant massage the work.
Organisers expect ploughmen to do their best, and pay to do it! is it not natural for us to expect them to at least enforce their own rules?

Maybe the unrest is only when you are present Harry, you seem to have mastered the knack of rubbing people up the wrong way better than you have mastered the gentle art of match ploughing, I have sat with, laughed, shared news and jokes with the WS guys and see no malice in 99.9% of what they say to each other, all just good banter.

Howard150 · Jan 20, 2018

Ley253 said:
All quite correct, but none of it shown in the photo, and impossible for a less knowledgeable person to notice. I indeed did go back to dig said obstruction out if it was going to cause problems on the next run, fact is, I couldn't find it, so nothing was done! Rick told me he had seen it while taking the vid. It must have been a small flat one that rolled, lifting the plough.

As sloths spend their time upside down from creepers, I now have a picture of tight rope walking antisocial tortoises!

No malice aforethought Harry but one thing that really concerns me is that certain propensity of yours to force your opinion - right or wrong - to the fore. Its fine on here amongst the grown ups, but is a major issue were you to be telling stewards not entirely sure of the rules that it’s OK to kick ends over as its beyond the bounds of your plot or that because by nature you are not a serial handler then nothing you do can be costrued as handling. Neither fair, right nor true. It is after all your slant on the rules.

Perhaps time for a reappraisal Aitch. The only person you seem to be winding off the clock is yourself.

Perhaps you should also take on board and man up to Fred actually doing what you are inciting others to do on a regular basis. Beware of crying foul whilst being ‘Hoist by your own petard’

Pennine Ploughing · Jan 20, 2018

in`s and out`s are judged 2 meters either side of the scratch mark,
ploughing depth can not be measured at 2 meters or less from the scratch mark.

so kicking the ends over is part of the judged part of the in`s and out`s,

if they were not judged, then why bother doing anything with them, just plough full depth through the mark, and then lift out as and when you wanted,,, but you cannot do this

Howard150 · Jan 20, 2018

Pennine Ploughing said:
in`s and out`s are judged 2 meters either side of the scratch mark,
ploughing depth can not be measured at 2 meters or less from the scratch mark.

so kicking the ends over is part of the judged part of the in`s and out`s,

if they were not judged, then why bother doing anything with them, just plough full depth through the mark, and then lift out as and when you wanted,,, but you cannot do this

Very much as I said earlier John - pough through full depth at the chip and then civilise what is outside your plot. Self respecting honest ploughman opposed to handling. 20 points for ins and outs. According to Harry - not handling.

Ley253 · Jan 21, 2018

A headland mark is a headland mark, all inside is plot all outside is headland. I may be splitting hairs with my interpretation of the rules, but those who produce them should make that impossible.

Pennine Ploughing · Jan 21, 2018

Tonym · Jan 21, 2018

Ley253 said:
A headland mark is a headland mark, all inside is plot all outside is headland. I may be splitting hairs with my interpretation of the rules, but those who produce them should make that impossible.

That is in an ideal world Harry. Plough up to headland mark full depth lift out to leave un-moved ground on the headland side. Reverse on entry to the plot.

As you rightly say the rules are a total shambles. You can lift a leg but not out of the ploughing position so lifting out at the ends could be against the rules in someone's interpretation of them but if you are ploughing at the Nationals and drop your plough outside your plot which starts and ends at the scratch you will be disqualified.

The only rule that is clear is the one that states that - Any questions arising from these rules shall be decided by the Executive Committee whose decision shall be final and binding.

Roy Stokes · Jan 21, 2018

Ley253 said:
A headland mark is a headland mark, all inside is plot all outside is headland. I may be splitting hairs with my interpretation of the rules, but those who produce them should make that impossible.

They do make it impossible by the SOP rule that states " a competitors plough is not allowed to plough any part of the site other than the competitors own plot" (I don't think it mentions practice plots which are stewarded and paid for) failure to comply results in disqualification if my interpretation is correct, my wording may not be strictly as the rule book but I've lit the fire with last year's national entry papers.

Going back to your 1st post on this thread Harry, I am not a budding Poriot but do I detect that you are slightly miffed that you have not been invited to plough for the seminar but maybe some chaps who figure more regularly on the podium but suffer what Howard would term as "Southern Counties Disease" have been?

Also going back a long way in this thread I think it shows you in a very bad light to mention names such as Bill Tonkin and refer to Mick Watkins having been awarded garden tools when he actually won them in a raffle when they are not on here to defend their position, we only have your word about the first- a word we now know can be twisted in many directions to fit the criteria, as for Mick Watkins, there was much laughter including Mick himself about his raffle prize and the photo was taken especially for broadcasting over social media to bait the likes of you, you have been well and truly hooked by that one.

It has also been mentioned about Mick being team coach for the English vintage/classic European Championships, Mick has done this job on more than one occasion, his results as team coach speak for themselves, there is absolutely no handling at the Europeans but English competitors still win through on a regular basis, so the theory of our poor standing in World Style at world level being down to handling is rubbish, there are many reasons for our failure at that level, not least funding, look at our performance in sport since lottery funding gave competitors enough to live on without working full time.

I presume you don't know Mick Watkins very well but sitting around a dinner table with our team,the WAG's and Mr & Mrs Watkins was a pleasure I will remember for a very long time.

Howard150 · Jan 21, 2018

Tonym said:
The only rule that is clear is the one that states that - Any questions arising from these rules shall be decided by the Executive Committee whose decision shall be final and binding.

And used to great and devastating effect by them. At Lichfield - shambolic as it was with most competitors having to retire unable to even drive on their plots - straightness was introduced as an aspect, changing the order of countback despite the prize schedule being issued in the May of that year containing the old established order of countback, which we had all signed and entered by. A legal document of our acceptance of terms, made so by our signature. In the event the new system of countback was used meaning I came second to David Hankey by 2 points. If the old system which we had entered by had been used then I would have won by 3 points. I made a formal complaint to which Alan Jones curtly replied. “The rest of the competition was judged by the new order of countback and the Executive has decided that the result will stand. We cannot be held responsible for what was after all, an error in the printing. May I also direct your attention to point 12 of the said prize schedule which says that the decision of the Executive is final and binding” so Animal Farm rules OK and some animals are definitely more equal than others - aparrently you (they) can just mix’n’match as you see fit. So much easier though when you are judge jury and executioner.

Roy Stokes said:
They do make it impossible by the SOP rule that states " a competitors plough is not allowed to plough any part of the site other than the competitors own plot" (I don't think it mentions practice plots which are stewarded and paid for) failure to comply results in disqualification if my interpretation is correct, my wording may not be strictly as the rule book but I've lit the fire with last year's national entry papers.

No need to differentiate the practice plot from the other Roy. It belongs to the competitor by virtue of him having paid handsomely for it but..... here’s the rub.....only until 4.30 on the Friday after which ploughing in that area is aparrently illegal.

Ley253 · Jan 21, 2018

Roy Stokes said:
They do make it impossible by the SOP rule that states " a competitors plough is not allowed to plough any part of the site other than the competitors own plot" (I don't think it mentions practice plots which are stewarded and paid for) failure to comply results in disqualification if my interpretation is correct, my wording may not be strictly as the rule book but I've lit the fire with last year's national entry papers.

Going back to your 1st post on this thread Harry, I am not a budding Poriot but do I detect that you are slightly miffed that you have not been invited to plough for the seminar but maybe some chaps who figure more regularly on the podium but suffer what Howard would term as "Southern Counties Disease" have been?

Also going back a long way in this thread I think it shows you in a very bad light to mention names such as Bill Tonkin and refer to Mick Watkins having been awarded garden tools when he actually won them in a raffle when they are not on here to defend their position, we only have your word about the first- a word we now know can be twisted in many directions to fit the criteria, as for Mick Watkins, there was much laughter including Mick himself about his raffle prize and the photo was taken especially for broadcasting over social media to bait the likes of you, you have been well and truly hooked by that one.

It has also been mentioned about Mick being team coach for the English vintage/classic European Championships, Mick has done this job on more than one occasion, his results as team coach speak for themselves, there is absolutely no handling at the Europeans but English competitors still win through on a regular basis, so the theory of our poor standing in World Style at world level being down to handling is rubbish, there are many reasons for our failure at that level, not least funding, look at our performance in sport since lottery funding gave competitors enough to live on without working full time.

I presume you don't know Mick Watkins very well but sitting around a dinner table with our team,the WAG's and Mr & Mrs Watkins was a pleasure I will remember for a very long time.

My and others disquiet at Mike Watkins appointment was based on his cavalier approach to the rules questioning his being a fit and proper person for the job. The tools may have been a prize, the revelling in publicity was not! I feel a more restrained attitude would have been more appropriate.
Like it or not. handling does effect our world standing, the serial handlers are all top men, winning at will in local matches, but, are not doing the same in the national. At first, this seems to be justice, but, if these top men had put the hand effort into making the plough do the job, who is to say that they would not have made the world match? And finished on top.
Miffed? errr yes! Not for no invite,my work was not good enough last year,in my view, but for not having a note stating this, and perhaps thanking me for last years effort , and the fact that there are honest men who could have been asked, Jonathan Lander for one.

Roy Stokes · Jan 21, 2018

You do not have to be a top footballer to make a good manager, like wise you do not have to be an expert ploughman to make a good judge, Mick Watkins happens to be both an excellent ploughman and excellent team coach, his results in both European competition and coaching the team are beyond reproach and all keyboard warriors should remember that, the fact that he also enjoyed a laugh over the raffle prize shows he is a good sport, something you could use as an example Harry.
Quality of work at a seminar is in my opinion immaterial, the idea is to point out to the prospective judges where the faults lay and how to point it. sometimes it is more difficult to judge a novice class than an open.
So Jonathon Lander is Honest and Bill Tonkin, Mick Watkins, and others you have posted pictures of but not named are not, A BIT STRONG THAT Harry move over Judge Rinder, Harry is taking your seat on the bench.
Did you really expect the organizing society to write you a note saying they didn't want you because your work was carp last year, I can imagine the thread on here about that, we had enough sparks when I pointed out the faults at a local match up here.

Howard150 · Jan 21, 2018

Ley253 said:
Miffed? errr yes! Not for no invite,my work was not good enough last year,in my view, but for not having a note stating this, and perhaps thanking me for last years effort , and the fact that there are honest men who could have been asked, Jonathan Lander for one.

Miffed? Miffed? Come on Aitch. Thought that lamp of yours had more oil in it than that. We are as ever - not how we see ourselves but more as perceived by others. Do the words and phrases self opinionated, loose cannon mean anything to you. Do the facts that you have constantly derided the governing body (as have others including myself) and imposed your own slant on the rules not lead you to think that possibly you might just well might be persona non grata best kept away from the cosy little world of a seminar which is as much a publicity as a teaching event.
Not hard to imagine the conversation to pick demonstrators ...
“Who ave yer got for’t Suthern Counties seminar?”
‘What abaht that Arry feller’
“Arry who?”
‘Ye know - I’m as allus as a lot ter say fer issen - I’m wi’t red ovverralls”
“Be a good un ter ave - allus a lot o’ faults in is ploughin”
‘Best not - only upset some on em an’turnt rest agen us - mebbe start tellin us t’rules. Never been a member fer years an only joined last time ter vote fer that bloody Plowright’
“Allus avin a go at us fer hanlin an not sortint’ judges out fer everybody.
‘Nah better left at ome we’re e can’t cause us any bother’

Or summat o that order anyway....

Ley253 · Jan 21, 2018

Ben Stokes is a world class and match winning cricketer, but the powers that be considered him to be persona non grata because he may have been in the wrong in a nightclub fracas. The people I have named are well known to be guilty of offences mentioned, which are in contravention of the sports rules, not taking place well away from the "playing area".
However, enough, we will never agree on many points, but thats life.
By the way, there was nothing "fishy" about my work last year, it just wasnt as good as it could, and should have been! I had to juggle some long standing commitments in order to attend, and some plans went well astray! Ending up sleeping on the floor of a friends house was one unplanned entertainment.Collecting a speeding ticket (in the lorry!) was another.

.

Roy Stokes · Jan 21, 2018

Ley253 said:
Ending up sleeping on the floor of a friends house was one unplanned entertainment

Surprised anyone would have you, you wouldn't get through my door again after last time !

Ley253 · Jan 21, 2018

Howard150 said:
Miffed? Miffed? Come on Aitch. Thought that lamp of yours had more oil in it than that. We are as ever - not how we see ourselves but more as perceived by others. Do the words and phrases self opinionated, lose cannon mean anything to you. Do the facts that you have constantly derided the governing body (as have others including myself) and imposed your own slant on the rules not lead you to think that possibly you might just well might be persona non grata best kept away from the cosy little world of a seminar which is as much a publicity as a teaching event.
Not hard to imagine the conversation to pick demonstrators ...
“Who ave yer got for’t Suthern Counties seminar?”
‘What abaht that Arry feller’
“Arry who?”
‘Ye know - I’m as allus as a lot ter say fer issen - I’m wi’t red ovverralls”
“Be a good un ter ave - allus a lot o’ faults in is ploughin”
‘Best not - only upset some on em an’turnt rest agen us - mebbe start tellin us t’rules. Never been a member fer years an only joined last time ter vote fer that bloody Plowright’
“Allus avin a go at us fer hanlin an not sortint’ judges out fer everybody.
‘Nah better left at ome we’re e can’t cause us any bother’

Or summat o that order anyway....

The very fact the as you say, its a publicity event is the reason everyone taking part must be squeaky clean.
And I am on the list as a "student" this year.
If taking the rules as they are written is a slant, so be it. Maybe it will end with the rules being rewritten. For example, no hyd rams in some classes has lead to electrical operation! Had the rule said, No power operation or assistance of plough controls, it would have been much better.
Still, perhaps my world is too "black and white".

Ley253 · Jan 21, 2018

Roy Stokes said:
Surprised anyone would have you, you wouldn't get through my door again after last time !

I had said, enough. However, that comment does require a reply.I was honoured to be invited to your home, and if I put up an enormous "Black"that evening, I unreservedly apologise.

Pennine Ploughing · Jan 21, 2018

would the members on here refrain from posting names of ploughmen on here that cannot defend themselves,
one of the men named happens to be in rather poor health,
and does not need the social media giving him a hard time when he is very ill

thank you

rusty nuts · Jan 21, 2018

Yes thats right and most of what ley253 says is a load of rubbish The person has been European trailed champion and he did not get that with handling

Is handling now permitted?

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100% I’ve had enough of farming!

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