2018 - Flea beetle attacks in OSR

[Pilatus]

I dont think anything i was told at ag college was actually correct !

the issue with CSFB is our fault - we are over used insecticides and have selected resistance


that over use of insecticide was something we were taught at a college...............

Talking seemingly like a “Dummie”I assume the same scenario applies to herbicides and fungicides.

Off topic .
Do Monsanto keep tweeking the formulations of glyphosate to try and slow down the problem of resistance to it,or are they only tinkering with the wetters and not the actual chemistry of the glyphosate itself, so eventual resistance inevitable ,unless it is banned first!!!
Better be careful as almost starting to imply organic farming is the way to go.

 

[Clive]

Talking seemingly like a “Dummie”I assume the same scenario applies to herbicides and fungicides.

Off topic .
Do Monsanto keep tweeking the formulations of glyphosate to try and slow down the problem of resistance to it,or are they only tinkering with the wetters and not the actual chemistry of the glyphosate itself, so eventual resistance inevitable ,unless it is banned first!!!
Better be careful as almost starting to imply organic farming is the way to go.

organic is not the answer........ but they do have some good intel !

IPM needs greater focus, some agronomists need to stop taking the "safe" option by default and farmers need to help them by taking some responsibility themselves, applications need proper justification, rotations need redesigning etc..........


somewhere between hardcore organic and hardcore conventional farming is the real answer - "conservation agriculture" is how it often gets referred to

 

[Gong Farmer]

@dontknowanything but it very well at Growndswell this year when he said he once had a headache, does that mean its a good idea for him to take a headache tablet several times every day just to be sure he never gets another ??

If he could feel a headache starting (like mildew or yellow rust appearing in the bottom of a crop) then he would take one

If he was putting himself in a situation where a headache was likely to develop (aphids are flying in and we know they are very likely carrying virus) then he would take one.

 

[Days of thunder]

Flee beetle a real problem this year as compared to last year where the rain seemed to keep them at bay. I have about 200 acres of rape in half clear field. I like the clearfield which allows me to control problem weeds. I spend quite a bit on growing it as I find it is the best break crop I can grow for controlling black grass if I was not going to grow it properly might as well just fallow it. I work with my agronomist and we do spray for csfb which is controlling them and without I would lose the crop. In future there maybe better cultural control but as yet I am not going to chance it. If csfb is becoming resistant to the sprays I am guessing the predators are too so a fair balance.

 

[Clive]

If he could feel a headache starting (like mildew or yellow rust appearing in the bottom of a crop) then he would take one

If he was putting himself in a situation where a headache was likely to develop (aphids are flying in and we know they are very likely carrying virus) then he would take one.

but if he takes them to often and becomes addicted / reliant upon them then what does he do ?

Thats where ag is right now

 

[warksfarmer]

Considering you two chaps are historically big Clearfield users, your above post doesn't make sense, or you are breaking the law!
Erucic acid levels have meant I could not grow my own rapeseed this year so had to buy. I bought a variety called flamingo off Frontier as they "gave" me a free crush storage deal in with the price of the seed. Next years rape crop will move off farm at harvest and I can price it at any time between now and may 31st 2020.

Never used clearfield here so no idea what you are referring to.

 

[Hampton]

When I was at ag college in the early 80s, we were taught the importance of crop hygiene and destroying the green bridge to help prevent disease and insect carry over.
Now the thinking is that the ground should always have something growing, ie cover crops, but is this helping ?

Breaking Green bridge is vital in much of crop husbandry, however it is currently very frowned upon.

 

[Hampton]

but if he takes them to often and becomes addicted / reliant upon them then what does he do ?

Thats where ag is right now

It is an absolute fact that there is no resistance to aspirin as a pain reliever. So whether you become addicted, reliant or whatever, it will always stop the pain. This isn't me making it up, it has been scientifically proven over thousands of journal articles and research papers.

 

[Hampton]

organic is not the answer........ but they do have some good intel !

IPM needs greater focus, some agronomists need to stop taking the "safe" option by default and farmers need to help them by taking some responsibility themselves, applications need proper justification, rotations need redesigning etc..........


somewhere between hardcore organic and hardcore conventional farming is the real answer - "conservation agriculture" is how it often gets referred to

IPM does not mean don't use pesticides though!
It means make sure you only use them where necessary. A Rape crop with shot holing is grounds for a necessary insecticide application, and many of us are still getting good results.

 

[Clive]

It is an absolute fact that there is no resistance to aspirin as a pain reliever. So whether you become addicted, reliant or whatever, it will always stop the pain. This isn't me making it up, it has been scientifically proven over thousands of journal articles and research papers.

Well i can't see it being a good idea taking any pill I don't need every day for the rest of my life just because I can and current science say is ok

IPM does not mean don't use pesticides though!
It means make sure you only use them where necessary. A Rape crop with shot holing is grounds for a necessary insecticide application, and many of us are still getting good results.

yes - where necessary and without doubt a lot of products have been used when not necessary and more "just in case" IPM is also about considering the bigger picture like rotation, variety and timing etc

 

[Clive]

Breaking Green bridge is vital in much of crop husbandry, however it is currently very frowned upon.

because it's wrong frankly

 

[SilliamWhale]

Breaking Green bridge is vital in much of crop husbandry, however it is currently very frowned upon.

Surely it depends on your rotation? Logic tells me new seeds in a "natural" environment have been able to co-exist with other plants for millenia so whilst I know monoculture has extorted that I'm not sure browning everything is necessarily better.

 

[Clive]

this should have been destroyed wit BYDV I guess ? never saw an insecticide and did over 10t of milling wheat IIRC

years since we used insecticides here now and we have spent the last decade positively encouraging the green bridge !

PS - just waked all my OSR today - no sign of CSFB yet

 

[B'o'B]

I do find it a bit worrying that the assumption is that all farmer/agronomists have been using insecticides willy-nilly.
I am aware that there is/has been a school of thought that insecticides are cheap let’s just put it in as we are going through anyway, but there is and always has been another school that has constantly used thresholds and attempted to minimise the use of blanket spraying of insecticide use throughout the rotation.
This is a public forum, please don’t tar everyone with the same “bad practice” brush in public or more tools will be removed from our ever shrinking toolbox.
2016 is the only year I’ve applied put a single flea beetle spray on my OSR. I didn’t want to do it but it was needed and it worked. I did all I could to maximise the chance of it working by spraying at night and conditioning the water.
If I need I will spray this year, but I don’t intend to.
I know I’m not the only farmer who uses plant protection products responsibly, not that you would know from reading some of the posts in the various flea beetle threads on the go at the moment.

 

[Hampton]

Surely it depends on your rotation? Logic tells me new seeds in a "natural" environment have been able to co-exist with other plants for millenia so whilst I know monoculture has extorted that I'm not sure browning everything is necessarily better.

Logic also tells you that plants grow faster and stronger in areas with no competition such as after forest fires or after snow cover melts

 

[Hampton]

because it's wrong frankly

No it's not, it's just your pseudo-scientific opinion!

 

[Brisel]

how about the idea that green bridge is also home to millions of beneficial species that predate stuff like CSFB and Slugs if we place focus on encouraging them and not making them collateral damage of prophylactic applications ?

Rather than breed resistance like we have for decades how about we focus on breading resilience into our farming systems ?

When I was at ag collage a solution to any problem could be found in a bag or bottle ...............apparently !


@dontknowanything but it very well at Growndswell this year when he said he once had a headache, does that mean its a good idea for him to take a headache tablet several times every day just to be sure he never gets another ??

If the green bridge were that effective, we wouldn't have the pest species at levels significant enough for threads like this...

As above, careful use of pesticides and IPM will slow the development of resistance, not eliminate it. As you say, the routine prophylactic use of insecticides will speed up the development of resistance, as will inappropriate dosage or poor application techniques.

 

[Hampton]

Well i can't see it being a good idea taking any pill I don't need every day for the rest of my life just because I can and current science say is ok



yes - where necessary and without doubt a lot of products have been used when not necessary and more "just in case" IPM is also about considering the bigger picture like rotation, variety and timing etc

That's not happening by and large though. If I use hallmark to control flea beetle once and don't use another insecticide on the crop it's hardly and over burden is it? Hardly applying insecticides everyday like an American popping Prozac is it!
same with everything else. I didn't use anything on my cereals, and also used less than 8 X 20l of glyphosate over 500 acres of arable.

I don't need to be told about IPM thank you, we have been through LEAF audits in the past and IFM/ICM/IPM is central to that thinking.

 

[Hampton]

If the green bridge were that effective, we wouldn't have the pest species at levels significant enough for threads like this...

As above, careful use of pesticides and IPM will slow the development of resistance, not eliminate it. As you say, the routine prophylactic use of insecticides will speed up the development of resistance, as will inappropriate dosage or poor application techniques.

When did big arable farms truly break the green bridge though. Chopping straw and raking it around a bit does not count!

 

[Days of thunder]

this should have been destroyed wit BYDV I guess ? never saw an insecticide and did over 10t of milling wheat IIRC

years since we used insecticides here now and we have spent the last decade positively encouraging the green bridge !

PS - just waked all my OSR today - no sign of CSFB yet

Probably bored them away.