Anyone have any knowledge of wills and such?

[FarmerStu79]

Posting on behalf of my partner.

His mum recently died an her will has been read since. My partner is the farmer, he and his mum have been in partnership since 2015 but he's been the farm worker for the past 22 years, low wage etc etc. He has also put large amounts of his own money into buying land that has now been quartered.

The will is 10 years old. She has left my partner the business, the stock, the machinery, fixtures and fittings as well as a quarter of the land that she owned. She has left the other three quarters to his sister, his brother and his nephew.

He gets on very well with his sister but unfortunately his brother and nephew are very much in cahoots with each other and dislike my partner. Neither of them are farmers the brother has his own very successful business in which the nephew is a partner. The brother was also left a lot of land when his father died (he does before my partner was born).

There are 4 houses on the farm 3 of which are occupied by my partner, the sister and the brother, the fourth house was my partners mums. She has left them a quarter of the houses each and the farm buildings and sheds. The will is very vague, it's almost like a draft that she was meaning to go back to but never did. She doesn't specify who has what in the will so it's assumed that they all own a quarter of each house and a quarter of every acre of land.

My partner is understandably worried about where this leaves him. For now everything is going on as it was before she died but his nephew is doing a bit of winding up. He's saying that he's going to buy some sheep and farm his quarter and that things will never be the same again in regards to my partner continuing farming.

My partner thinks he's in a pretty good position to be able to continue farming because she's left him the stock and the business but then again surely the others would really be well within their rights to farm their quarter if they wanted too? But than again no ones quarters are specified.

His brother and his sister are executors of the will.
I've been trying to get him persuaded into getting some proper legal advice but he's reluctant to do so.

I'm not sure if anyone can help and I'm sorry for the length. Would really appreciate some advice.

 

[rob1]

sorry but the only way will be expensive and mean employing legals, might be best to just agree to sell the lot take your cut and start afresh, families and wills equals mega nightmares

 

[FarmerStu79]

I dint think we'd be able to start afresh. Can't believe he's slogged his guts out and been fed to the lions like this!

 

[RushesToo]

Posting on behalf of my partner.

His mum recently died an her will has been read since. My partner is the farmer, he and his mum have been in partnership since 2015 but he's been the farm worker for the past 22 years, low wage etc etc. He has also put large amounts of his own money into buying land that has now been quartered.

The will is 10 years old. She has left my partner the business, the stock, the machinery, fixtures and fittings as well as a quarter of the land that she owned. She has left the other three quarters to his sister, his brother and his nephew.

He gets on very well with his sister but unfortunately his brother and nephew are very much in cahoots with each other and dislike my partner. Neither of them are farmers the brother has his own very successful business in which the nephew is a partner. The brother was also left a lot of land when his father died (he does before my partner was born).

There are 4 houses on the farm 3 of which are occupied by my partner, the sister and the brother, the fourth house was my partners mums. She has left them a quarter of the houses each and the farm buildings and sheds. The will is very vague, it's almost like a draft that she was meaning to go back to but never did. She doesn't specify who has what in the will so it's assumed that they all own a quarter of each house and a quarter of every acre of land.

My partner is understandably worried about where this leaves him. For now everything is going on as it was before she died but his nephew is doing a bit of winding up. He's saying that he's going to buy some sheep and farm his quarter and that things will never be the same again in regards to my partner continuing farming.

My partner thinks he's in a pretty good position to be able to continue farming because she's left him the stock and the business but then again surely the others would really be well within their rights to farm their quarter if they wanted too? But than again no ones quarters are specified.

His brother and his sister are executors of the will.
I've been trying to get him persuaded into getting some proper legal advice but he's reluctant to do so.

I'm not sure if anyone can help and I'm sorry for the length. Would really appreciate some advice.

If the amount is substantial it might *just* be worth fighting legally, and no guarantee you would come out with anything.

Try an approach that identifies:
1. What could be lived on
2. What is fair
3. What is generous
4. What could be put up with and what couldn't

Decide what is most important and work out a way to get there.
A negotiated settlement managed by a trusted to all parties acquaintance might be worth thinking about.

What is going to happen next is at best going to be long and unpleasant, sorry.

The most important thing - ensure you have wills.
:-(

 

[FarmerStu79]

If the amount is substantial it might *just* be worth fighting legally, and no guarantee you would come out with anything.

Try an approach that identifies:
1. What could be lived on
2. What is fair
3. What is generous
4. What could be put up with and what couldn't

Decide what is most important and work out a way to get there.
A negotiated settlement managed by a trusted to all parties acquaintance might be worth thinking about.

What is going to happen next is at best going to be long and unpleasant, sorry.

The most important thing - ensure you have wills.
:-(

Thank you, that's helpful an food for thought.

We're under no illusion that this is going to be easy or pleasant.

We've said that something needs to be drawn up - a contract of some sort. My partner is a very fair person and willing to compromise to an extent to keep his livelihood. He's sacrificed so much for the farm.

 

[Danllan]

I'm assuming that you are in England or Wales.

Chancery is something I've never been involved with professionally, but I have a working knowledge from personal experience and helping some friends. Your partner needs to get advice from a good solicitor, this is almost certainly not going to be his 'family solicitor'. He'll need to find someone who specialises in wills etc. (matters for the Court of Chancery) and that sort of person is going to be in a major town or city. The solicitor will most probably want Counsel's advice to confirm his opinions too; for people of the right calibre you are looking at a bill for advice alone of circa £2k; it is a lot of money, but it will give you the best advice as to whether the matter is worth pursuing.

Litigation using good Counsel can be cripplingly expensive; the advice you receive will establish whether or not your partner has a good chance of success, if it advises that he has, and if it comes from Counsel of sufficient experience and standing, the advice alone could be enough to dissuade the other parties from contesting a case.

If you let me know your area and can ask some friends for recommendations about who to go to.

 

[Frank-the-Wool]

Are you members of NFU or CLA? If so they will be able to point you in the direction of specialist legal people in this area.
As said, do not use the old family solicitor but a specialist in agricultural land, property and wills.

Something that comes to immediate mind in what you have said is that there is a potentially very high inheritance tax liability on the properties that are not eligible for APR.

 

[FarmerStu79]

I'm assuming that you are in England or Wales.

Chancery is something I've never been involved with professionally, but I have a working knowledge from personal experience and helping some friends. Your partner needs to get advice from a good solicitor, this is almost certainly not going to be his 'family solicitor'. He'll need to find someone who specialises in wills etc. (matters for the Court of Chancery) and that sort of person is going to be in a major town or city. The solicitor will most probably want Counsel's advice to confirm his opinions too; for people of the right calibre you are looking at a bill for advice alone of circa £2k; it is a lot of money, but it will give you the best advice as to whether the matter is worth pursuing.

Litigation using good Counsel can be cripplingly expensive; the advice you receive will establish whether or not your partner has a good chance of success, if it advises that he has, and if it comes from Counsel of sufficient experience and standing, the advice alone could be enough to dissuade the other parties from contesting a case.

If you let me know your area and can ask some friends for recommendations about who to go to.

Thank you. We're in North Yorkshire.

 

[Walterp]

There are bound to be practising solicitors or counsel on TFF?

Until they turn up, I hope this helps:

1. Farmers often get confused between 'the farm' and 'the business', especially if it's a partnership.

The reason for this is that the farm, or any other property assets, may not be owned in quite the proportions that everyone expects, if they are treated as 'partnership assets' - profits and losses can affect ownership, via the capital accounts of each individual partner.

Advice essential, as is sight of the entire set of partnership accounts, and the accountant's file. An excellent accountant is Mervyn Andrews' firm in Bristol, whom in my experience anyone may consult with trust and confidence.

2. In much the same way, the documentary declarations on a land parcel purchase may not always be conclusive of shares held in that land, if (for instance) extra capital was contributed, or collateral arrangements were reached between the parties.

3. Again, promises can alter Wills, although this is a very much more contentious area.

4. The verbals about 'my quarter' is commonplace - my wastrel brother tried this old chestnut (as, in fact, did my scoundrely old man, back in the day when he pulled much the same stunt, in similar circumstances to yours, after my grandfather died). Ignore it.

5. The Will was 'read' (I didn't know they still did this) so it must be clear, otherwise it could not be professionally drawn. Here is not the place to discuss it, so professional advice required from an independent solicitor.

Your partner should seek advice by personal recommendation, from someone he trusts that is in business on their own account, and who can personally vouch for reliable advice. Don't select a firm of solicitors, select the individual.

If you are anywhere near Cardiff, the solicitor who advised the Cowshed Cinderella is an impressive (but expensive) recommendation - he tried hard, in an untried area of law.

Good luck to both of you.

 

[FarmerStu79]

Are you members of NFU or CLA? If so they will be able to point you in the direction of specialist legal people in this area.
As said, do not use the old family solicitor but a specialist in agricultural land, property and wills.

Something that comes to immediate mind in what you have said is that there is a potentially very high inheritance tax liability on the properties that are not eligible for APR.

We're NFU members and they've suggested two solicitors nearby.

Yes, when the two other barns were being converted into houses my partner did warn his mother that you're turning an old barn worth £2000 into a dwelling worth £150,000 - apparently they are 'farm workers cottages.' I don't know all the ins and outs, I'm not at all clued up so where they stand on this, I just don't know.

 

[Daddy Pig]

what size is the farm ? I'm guessing that if it has four houses on it it must be substantial and what has your partner inherited in the way of machinery and stock ?. don't think the business on it's own would have a value.

 

[FarmerStu79]

It's not a huge farm. It's around 200 acres, my partner owns another 30 acres outright and a lot is rented as well as grazing moorland.

Partner has inherited all of the stock so 600+ sheep and 60 suckler cows plus their calves and two stock Bulls. She has left him all of the plant machinery to two tractors and your usual grass cutters, muck spreaders, hay bobs, trailers etc etc

 

[Danllan]

As has been written above, quality of the individual solicitor is very important, there are a great many 'also rans', but some exceptional individuals too; good firms rarely employ and don't keep inadequate people.

However, getting a personal recommendation could be difficult unless you know of someone who has been through the same sort of thing. Failing that, reputation is based on performance and results, and people in a given field generally have a fair idea of how they and their peers perform.

I'll email a couple of Chancery friends to ask who they can recommend up your way, they are in London but work across the country, I'll PM you with their responses.

 

[Danllan]

Sorry, I forgot to ask, how long ago was the grant of probate / letters?

 

[Nearly]

From my little experience...

Who are the executors?
Can partner prove what land he bought as part of the business?
If he and the business bought land after he became a partner then that's a % his already.
It's going to be a fecking nightmare.

It could be more tax efficient for all for executors to make small modifications to the will so each beneficiary gets given their own house first of all and then falls out over what's left?

Good luck. You'll need it.

 

[multi power]

@Danllan @Walterp could you possibly recommend someone to deal with this kind of thing

 

[curlietailz]

Hi OP
I'm in Co Durham and use Jacksons Law Firm at Preston Farm Stockton.
I know they are an NFU panel solicitor.... I have used them for all sorts of legal stuff including wills and land transfers
I also use Archers in Stockton, they were really good when my husband died, and the probate and land transfers etc with a farm estate.
I know that's not NYorks but it's close..... Perhaps chat to a trusted Land Agent or NFU, TFA, CLA etc first? They may be of help?

I agree with a previous poster about getting Councel Opinion too.... I've been down that route...... It cost me about £5k though....

Please get some proper (expensive and experienced) legal advice, because this is going to get messy .... Sorry.

 

[FarmerStu79]

Hi OP
I'm in Co Durham and use Jacksons Law Firm at Preston Farm Stockton.
I know they are an NFU panel solicitor.... I have used them for all sorts of legal stuff including wills and land transfers
I also use Archers in Stockton, they were really good when my husband died, and the probate and land transfers etc with a farm estate.
I know that's not NYorks but it's close..... Perhaps chat to a trusted Land Agent or NFU, TFA, CLA etc first? They may be of help?

I agree with a previous poster about getting Councel Opinion too.... I've been down that route...... It cost me about £5k though....

Please get some proper (expensive and experienced) legal advice, because this is going to get messy .... Sorry.

Yes thank you Jacksons are one f the firms that's been reccommended as well as Bromley and Wilson in malton.

Hopefully it won't come to this an they'll be able to come to some sort of agreement. He has worked to his detriment though, he admits himself he could've earnt

 

[FarmerStu79]

- a lot more work in elsewhere. He was led to believe that he would be taking over after her death and now he feels it's all for nothing.

His brother and nephew have made a good living off the land that was left to his brother. The brother is actually being quite reasonable for now it's the nephew that is really wanting to upset the apple cart.

Something needs to be thrashed out and written up with a solicitor present.

Such a shame. He's worked far too hard for not a lot to now have to deal with this. We have a young family too.

 

[Alicecow]

Posting on behalf of my partner.

His mum recently died an her will has been read since. My partner is the farmer, he and his mum have been in partnership since 2015 but he's been the farm worker for the past 22 years, low wage etc etc. He has also put large amounts of his own money into buying land that has now been quartered.

The will is 10 years old. She has left my partner the business, the stock, the machinery, fixtures and fittings as well as a quarter of the land that she owned. She has left the other three quarters to his sister, his brother and his nephew.

He gets on very well with his sister but unfortunately his brother and nephew are very much in cahoots with each other and dislike my partner. Neither of them are farmers the brother has his own very successful business in which the nephew is a partner. The brother was also left a lot of land when his father died (he does before my partner was born).

There are 4 houses on the farm 3 of which are occupied by my partner, the sister and the brother, the fourth house was my partners mums. She has left them a quarter of the houses each and the farm buildings and sheds. The will is very vague, it's almost like a draft that she was meaning to go back to but never did. She doesn't specify who has what in the will so it's assumed that they all own a quarter of each house and a quarter of every acre of land.

My partner is understandably worried about where this leaves him. For now everything is going on as it was before she died but his nephew is doing a bit of winding up. He's saying that he's going to buy some sheep and farm his quarter and that things will never be the same again in regards to my partner continuing farming.

My partner thinks he's in a pretty good position to be able to continue farming because she's left him the stock and the business but then again surely the others would really be well within their rights to farm their quarter if they wanted too? But than again no ones quarters are specified.

His brother and his sister are executors of the will.
I've been trying to get him persuaded into getting some proper legal advice but he's reluctant to do so.

I'm not sure if anyone can help and I'm sorry for the length. Would really appreciate some advice.

Haven't read the whole thread yet, but did the land he bought get put into his name or his mum's name. Can he prove that he paid for it, then get that taken out of the equation, then the remainder of the land quartered up?