That’s true. We had to stop having sewage sludge as phosphates were getting to 4/5.
pig muck is a bit more even , but still more P than K
Applying no bagged P or K to crops
- Thread starter HarryB97
- Start date
pig muck is a bit more even , but still more P than K
I wasn’t allowed to put sewage sludge on about 100ha the other year for this reason. I don’t really know why they are that high on that farm.
Hindsight
Member
- Location
- Lincolnshire
Past history? Ex dairy farm? Or possibly more likely a chicken farm n the 70's?
- Location
- Lincolnshire
There are plenty of heavy clay fields in my area where no potash has been applied in 30 years, straw etc is removed and little FYM is applied, guess what... the indices never alter from 2... phosphate is a different story.
No, a pretty intense arable farm and the only place we take straw off. Some pretty heavy dirt
Hindsight
Member
- Location
- Lincolnshire
Yes, I know a few of those sort of clay fields. Bag of TSP every year, or more likely every two years. Organise the purchase to coincide with years of profit. Sewage sludge or chicken manure be good for you - was cheap until it became 'in vogue' to use sewage sludge and they built whose chicken poo power stations to produce green energy to save the planet. Hey ho.
- Location
- Yorks
We've some land that was permanent pasture that only had N (no p or k) for years. 1 x hay crop per year. Not ploughed for decades.
P & K indices were about 1. Being ploughed now with arable crops for last 8 years. Copious amounts of FYM and 0:24:24. Slowly improving indices.
Only 2 fields, not very scientific, but that leads me to probably not immediately agree with what you guys are saying.
Rest of farm in ploughed arable cropping are indices 2-2.4 ish. FYM and p&k fert used over the years.
Just my experience.
SilliamWhale
Member
Its definitely true. For a start you are not eroding away your fertile soil particles through tillage and secondly you are keeping your nutritional pathways open in the rhizosphere.
That said you may very well need to add amendments sometimes but if you soil test is reasonable then keep doing what you're doing
That said you may very well need to add amendments sometimes but if you soil test is reasonable then keep doing what you're doing
SilliamWhale
Member
You can't magic it up if its low in the first place - certainly not in a human timeframe. But you can cling onto more of it and get it better cycling when you feel you have enough plant available nutrient there. But you will need to get the P level up to some level especially for monocultural modern arable crops
- Location
- Northumberlandia
My 2mins worth if it means anything.
Ive just done back of Fag Packet maths right on my acres of arable am roughly at £34/ac for MOP/TSP raw material costs ok for this year ahead
its all spread at 24m two trips job done, all vari rate on proper soil maps done via SOILQUEST/RHIZA
they know the indices going back 6years now. So its put where it needs to be poss the least wastefull way of using this product id say.
So lets switch back to applying good old cattle muck everywhere & mind id need some amount of tonnage of that
lets be kind to the land & put it on at 10t/ac being quite safe here. 20t/ac is where it needs too be really
that's actually a dearer exercise when you add in all the machinery work to remove it out the sheds heap it up/ reload it/spread it ect etc & boy you can put sum ruts in if your not careful
& anything i apply muck too here is ploughed i can assure you.
Now before i get shot down ive been down the lets skip a year & put no P&K on we did it coz whenever it was guessing 12-14 year ago it got to silly money someone will know the prices.
& the crop from it was deffo thinner, 4years after the original deep soil scans then full zone sampling iam now using slightly less P&K year on year.
so who is right or wrong?
I do use some cattle muck but only on about 50ac annually max. there just aint enough cattle to supply me with all the muck in the world around these parts.
and would i like to handle 5000t yearly err no thanks. its a massive amount of graft when the stuff out the bag is a one man job & all done in about 3 full days
Yes ive used Hen pen, it has its issues & with no real availability locally its quite pricey as it has too be hauled a fair distance. so for now until a more local supply is found its not being used.
its like rocket fuel mind.
Ive just done back of Fag Packet maths right on my acres of arable am roughly at £34/ac for MOP/TSP raw material costs ok for this year ahead
its all spread at 24m two trips job done, all vari rate on proper soil maps done via SOILQUEST/RHIZA
they know the indices going back 6years now. So its put where it needs to be poss the least wastefull way of using this product id say.
So lets switch back to applying good old cattle muck everywhere & mind id need some amount of tonnage of that
lets be kind to the land & put it on at 10t/ac being quite safe here. 20t/ac is where it needs too be really
that's actually a dearer exercise when you add in all the machinery work to remove it out the sheds heap it up/ reload it/spread it ect etc & boy you can put sum ruts in if your not careful
& anything i apply muck too here is ploughed i can assure you.
Now before i get shot down ive been down the lets skip a year & put no P&K on we did it coz whenever it was guessing 12-14 year ago it got to silly money someone will know the prices.
& the crop from it was deffo thinner, 4years after the original deep soil scans then full zone sampling iam now using slightly less P&K year on year.
so who is right or wrong?
I do use some cattle muck but only on about 50ac annually max. there just aint enough cattle to supply me with all the muck in the world around these parts.
and would i like to handle 5000t yearly err no thanks. its a massive amount of graft when the stuff out the bag is a one man job & all done in about 3 full days
Yes ive used Hen pen, it has its issues & with no real availability locally its quite pricey as it has too be hauled a fair distance. so for now until a more local supply is found its not being used.
its like rocket fuel mind.
Cowabunga
Member
- Location
- Ceredigion,Wales
Putting muck on, or even making muck is now frowned on in high places where very influential people are telling policy makers that the producers are gross polluters, whether ruminants or birds. So forget putting livestock back on large areas of arable land, it ain't going to happen. Within the next decade the number of livestock and livestock farmers in the UK is likely to halve and most of the land released will be planted with trees or grow tumbleweed, gorse or thorn bushes. Don't believe me? I refer you to this thread started yesterday
thefarmingforum.co.uk
RSPCA seek to end "factory farming"
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/rspca-meat-dairy-factory-farm-health-climate-b1779549.html?amp#csi=0&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s As a point of balance, RSPCA Freedom Food finishing pigs can be stocked at over 100kg per m2.
thefarmingforum.co.uk
Putting muck on, or even making muck is now frowned on in high places where very influential people are telling policy makers that the producers are gross polluters, whether ruminants or birds. So forget putting livestock back on large areas of arable land, it ain't going to happen. Within the next decade the number of livestock and livestock farmers in the UK is likely to halve and most of the land released will be planted with trees or grow tumbleweed, gorse or thorn bushes. Don't believe me? I refer you to this thread started yesterday
RSPCA seek to end "factory farming"
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/rspca-meat-dairy-factory-farm-health-climate-b1779549.html?amp#csi=0&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s As a point of balance, RSPCA Freedom Food finishing pigs can be stocked at over 100kg per m2.
Sad, misguided and stupid.
No understanding of soils and plant nutrition.
Funny how the big wild grass lands in the world work very well on animal inputs.
Cowabunga
Member
- Location
- Ceredigion,Wales
Yes it is ridiculous but that is the way the wind is blowing.
SilliamWhale
Member
No I don't think so. Limited but not flawed
Cab-over Pete
Member
- Location
- Kenilworth, Warwickshire
Will it still need lime?
I guess not if it’s just growing wild. Can’t help but wonder if there’s any real future for my busting keen lad.
I guess not if it’s just growing wild. Can’t help but wonder if there’s any real future for my busting keen lad.
Bossfarmer
Member
- Location
- between Perth and Inverness
do you add muck? and is your soil heavy?
Yes and yes, though not all that heavy
ollie989898
Member
What odds if 25 units going to make? This mindset is like someone who can't quite kick the habit because he is afraid he is magically going to lose loads of yield unless he does it. As you know, just in case applications of anything on TFF are highly frowned upon but in this case I would say I'd agree with the frowning.
Unless he has done soil tests for these things and found the land deficient the agronomist is basically telling the farmer to waste his money and in all likelihood is breaking nutrient guidelines.
Down here, a farm with pigs and cattle, including clients of mine, were buying no bagged P or K and were saving big on their nitrogen bill as well.
If you short silage land of K from whatever source, you are on a hiding to nothing.
Remember a farmer up North, stockman but grew good crops, reckoned his grass never needed lime as it was grazed. Pointed out that livestock remove minerals as you sell meat and rain caused leaching. When handed farm back for £££ to estate pH was 4-5!!!
Agree bagged P use can be mitigated a bit by mining using cover crops eg buckwheat for P, the soil replenishes solution P then the now organic matter P in the buckwheat cover provides for following crop, Not so sure of K on soils other than K releasing clays though...
As mentioned, dont confuse no bagged fert with 'but we use muck/compost/slurry etc etc'- still an import and still a cost. And a big one given logistics!
Remember a farmer up North, stockman but grew good crops, reckoned his grass never needed lime as it was grazed. Pointed out that livestock remove minerals as you sell meat and rain caused leaching. When handed farm back for £££ to estate pH was 4-5!!!
Agree bagged P use can be mitigated a bit by mining using cover crops eg buckwheat for P, the soil replenishes solution P then the now organic matter P in the buckwheat cover provides for following crop, Not so sure of K on soils other than K releasing clays though...
As mentioned, dont confuse no bagged fert with 'but we use muck/compost/slurry etc etc'- still an import and still a cost. And a big one given logistics!