B275 injector pump

[averageguy54]

The main motivation for signing up.

I recently had to remove my pump, the in-line one, and send it out for a rebuild. I got it back and now I'm trying to re-install it.The engine wasn't running when I pulled it so it is not at TDC on #1. I took photos of the timing gears before I removed the pump so I could get it back together properly. This however is turning into an exercise in futility.

When everything is lined up according to the pictures, the pump is ready to open on #2 but the engine is opening #3. As far as I can tell the timing pointer will only bolt on in one position and if I turn it to match the engine then it is out by about 60*. Considerable turning of the engine in either direction doesn't seem to be able to reconcile the two.

It appears to be possible to loosen the center nut on the injector pump and turn the pointer without moving the actual pump so that it remains in position. Retightening would set the timing pointer in the proper position along with the pump being in sequence with the engine. Is this possible or is there something that locks timing gear and the camshaft in a one only correct position. the manuals I have seems to suggest, in an exploded drawing of the pump. that my suggestion is indeed possible. Doing this would put everything in accord with the drawings in my manuals as well.

My problem is that over here mentioning what the tractor is, and what I'm trying to do. gets me this confused look at best or "deer in the headlights" from the rest. Even the local IH dealer says he'll have to go read up on it.

I'm really hoping I won't have to remove the loader and front axle to get this thing timed, but I do need it for winter, which appears to be sneaking up a little too quick.

 

[Mur Huwcun]

The gear will only fit the hub on the injector pump one way, one bolt hole is off centre as per say. It is further away from the centre. Just centre the bolts in middle of groove and set pointer to 0 degrees.

The hub is keywayed onto the pump shaft so will not move. The nut is in a recess and is near on impossible to remove and retighten without an array of chisels and punches.

Have you had the timing cover off and set all the timing marks up?

This is a pump I did recently.

 

[averageguy54]

There goes that idea. Yes, I removed the rad and front timing cover a couple months ago to remove the pump for rebuild. I took photos of the gears before I unbolted the timing gear and pump but seem to be unable to relocate that sweet spot where everything lines up. Is there any chance I could have made the timing gear jump a tooth or two on the idler? I didn't think I did but I'm running out of ideas. Somehow I need to get the engine and pump both on the same cylinder.

 

[Mur Huwcun]

If you lined up all the marks on the gears then they can’t be wrong. I take it the tractor makes no attempt at firing?

The timing gear can’t move out of mesh when not attached to the pump therefore shouldn’t of moved on the idler.

Any chance the repairers have forgotten the key way? Does the nut look like it’s been removed?

 

[Mursal]

As a rough guide, number one plunger on the pump will be on the way up with the timing marks aligned. Engine turns clockwise at the front.

Edit:
Factory timing marks are always on number one cylinder.
So both the exhaust and inlet valve need to be closed on number one cylinder with the marks lined up?
This is worth checking ................

 

[averageguy54]

I'm still trying to get things lined up so I can mount and fasten down the pump, it's out too much yet. I don't have the front cover off so I can't tell if all the marks line up. When I line up the markings I took a photo of, the pump appears to be 180* out of sync with the engine this is what I'm trying to reconcile. As far as I know, the rebuilder had the pump totally disassembled, including the camshaft because he billed me for the 2 bearings. He has a very good reputation as a rebuilder here so I am fairly confident in his work.

My mechanic son is here playing with it as well. He is attempting to see if we can set it using the #1 TDC method and leave the marks to themselves. In the process my Blue Ribbon service manual, which purports to be direct from IH, mentions lining a mark on the fan drive pulley with the pointer. Would that mark be on the inside of the pulley?

 

[Mursal]

Yes good idea to set it up on number one TDC, that should also make the timing marks line up also?
If not the valves on number one are open (rocking) instead of closed, this will explain the 180 out on the pump.

So TDC on number one, but both valves must be closed and the marks should line up?

If not?
You can spill time the pump, but hopefully you wont have to do that?
Spill timing involves taking the delivery valve out of number one outlet from the injector pump and giving the pump a fuel supply. With number one plunger on the way up, just stop the fuel coming out the injector outlet, by turning the pump in the correct direction. Do this a few times to find and them double check the point of injection. This point of injection will be several degrees before TDC.

 

[Mursal]

Click for how to check injector timing

 

[averageguy54]

It's too dark now to play with it anymore today. Try again tomorrow, he got it lined up according to the book for #1, but the pump pointer will be off the timing marker on the timing gear.

I'll try to upload some photos tonight.

 

[Mursal]

I hope I'm not making the task harder for you, my explanations can be confusing at times.

 

[averageguy54]

I'm back for today. Late night pouring over manuals, etc.,so late getting up. Trip to town (40 min each way) to get feed, so got to make the trip count. Not sure on the time zone difference between here and you but it is getting too dark to see at around 7 PM over here. Right now it's 4:30 PM. That will get worse next week when the clocks go back an hour.

Apologies to Mur Huwcun, I don't have the timing cover off, I have the inspection cover in front of the injector pump off. I was hoping to avoid taking the timing cover off.

We have the engine set at TDC according to all the external markings and valves, valve cover is off the engine. The timing gear is positioned so that the timing marks on it are at 8 o'clock. The injector pump ready to open on #1 is at 2 o'clock. I'm guessing that I won't be able to bolt the pump up with the pointer in its current position but I'm going to see what happens. If it does bolt up, I can probably spill time it from there.

Otherwise, it would seem that I'm going to have to turn the engine over multiple times until the timing marks on the timing gear and the idler gear line up. Hopefully the battery will hold up, don't feel like doing it by hand.

 

[Mursal]

That sounds good ................

 

[Mur Huwcun]

Can you bolt it up without the timer plate? I spilled my 250 as the timing marker was missing and I was not convinced to fit it without. I’m still pretty sure that the bolt holes will only line up in one of the three positions on the gear though.

 

[averageguy54]

Good news, bad news. The good news is that the bolt holes for the timing pointer will work at the 2 o'clock position. The bad news is that I had to back the engine up too far to get it fastened, about 10 teeth. I read somewhere that 1 tooth on the crank was equal to 4* of time so that would make it 40*BTDC, which is double what the book says it should be.

Anyway, going to have a bit of supper and then I guess I'll start turning it over. I shouldn't have to remove the whole timing cover for this. It's not my first time doing this, albeit the first time on a diesel. Since there is no idler gear between the crankshaft gear and the camshaft gear, they will automatically line up every other turn of the crank. I can see the timing mark on the idler gear so I should have to turn the engine over until it lines up with the marks on the timing gear and then make sure the engine is at TDC. That should have all the timing marks properly in line.

 

[Mursal]

Yes there is whats known as an extra "hunting tooth" on the idler, so cranking round clockwise is the only option.
Hopefully that will have you sorted .......

 

[averageguy54]

Time to pack it in tonight, it's too dark. An hour of cranking by hand and still no line up on #1. I did notice that there was only one timing mark on the idler gear so I counted out teeth and made one half way round. When everything is in it's proper position I should be able to see one of them.

 

[startinghandle]

was engine accidently turned after pump was removed

 

[averageguy54]

Raining out today, so no tractor time. It'll have to housework I guess. Just me and the cat and she won't clean up the place.

No, startinghandle, it wasn't but this situation is the result of certain lack of knowledge I guess. I shut the tractor off and couldn't get it restarted, mind you it wasn't working right when I was using it last. Anyway, I simply removed the pump where it was when it shut off. I took some photos of the timing pointer and gears before removal, through the inspection cover. When I got the pump back from the rebuilders, instead of turning the pump to fit the motor timing I turned the motor to fit the pump.Unfortunately, for some reason, reversing the rotations didn't result in the marks lining up properly. I could replicate the photos but at that point of timing the engine and pump are off by 180*. The engine is ready to open #3 and the pump is ready to feed #2.
All my turning over last night resulted in getting timing marks lined up a few times but not when #1 was at TDC, #4 and #2 but not #1.
I've read and re-read my 2 manuals several times looking for something I've missed but the only thing I've noticed is something odd in their procedure for setting #1at TDC. They say to watch #4 for its exhaust stroke and that as it comes up #1 intake is opening. Well, I understand the firing order to be1-3-4-2, so if #4 exhaust is closing then #2 intake should be opening I would think, not #1. Anyway I HAD #1 at TDC before I started this latest thing.
If this rotating thing doesn't work out reasonably soon, I'll have to pull the front end of the tractor and do it all the hard way, Heaven only knows when the last time the front was off this tractor, (build date 1963).

 

[Mursal]

Just to let you know.
Most 4 cylinder in-line engines have 2 sets of companion cylinders.
Companion cylinders means, the piston go up and down the cylinder at exactly the same time.
One set on companion cylinders are number 2 and number 3.
We have absolutely no interest in cylinders 2 and 3 when timing an engine.

But this is extremely important to find timing marks:
The other set of companion cylinders are, yes you guessed it, number 1 and 4.
So if number 1 is at the top (TDC) number 4 will also be at the top (TCD).
But when number one needs diesel from the injector pump both valves will be closed.

Funny enough when this is happening, both valves are a little open on number 4.
We say that number 4 valves are rocking.

If you have timing marks on the crankshaft they will line up each and every time the companion cylinders 1 and 4 are at the top, but the valves will only be closed on number 1 cylinder every second revolution (720 degrees).
So to know which cylinder should be firing you need to watch the valves, or better still find a mark on the camshaft or injector pump drive. Because the camshaft and pump drive run at half engine speed, so you will only have one revolution (360 degrees) between number one firing.

Many many qualified mechanics cant explain the 4 stroke cycle, so give yourself a bit of time to figure things out.

 

[startinghandle]

is there any exhaust smoke when trying to start??