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Discussion in 'Brexit & Politics' started by Fragonard, Dec 6, 2017.
Haben sie auch nichts vergessen?
Yep, myths have always been attractive to humans. They are less complex than the truth (I once suggested that 'Brexiters don't like complexity' and, although it wasn't universally acclaimed at the time, it was an interesting insight into how people think).
From another German (I guess you already know this, but it's interesting anyway):
"Whoever controls Berlin controls Germany, and whoever controls Germany controls Europe."
And a less contentious one, this time from Halford Mackinder:
"The geographic pivot of history runs through Berlin."
When you have 51% of people voting against the EU this has to be one of the most blinkered statements I have ever seen
Does it ?
It's only your intolerance to the position which was quite clearly set out in the referendum question
David Cameron was quite clear in ihs biased opinion of what would happen .. WW3, end of Western Civilisation & financial crash
We've even had ANOTHER referendum in the last General Election .. 85% of people voted to Leave
Remain have had 2 chances and lost twice
When EXACTLY are people like you going to admit you live in a democracy ?
Of course it does. Apparently there is no parliamentary majority for hard brexit and government hasn’t got the first idea how to deliver anything else.
The evidence of peace and prosperity is, in fact, all around us.
You are too young and ill-informed to realise what the alternatives look like.
in one of his more coherent moments, henley was asked what the song was about?
he replied that it referred to the dark underbelly of american society.
one can only assume walt when you oft associate this song with the eu that you regard said eu as the dark underbelly of european society!
nice one walt
Hi, I fear this post will reap opprobrium but I must reply to your assertion that the last General Election was in effect another referendum.
In our first past the post system the majority of voters in England really were only going to vote Labour or Conservative, both of whom stated they would honour the referendum result, all other votes were effectively wasted votes as at the day of the election the other parties had no overall chance of forming a government unless fortunate enough to end up as the 'casting vote party' which amusingly the DUP found themselves.
So given this then it is hardly surprising 85% of people voted for 'Leave' in the General Election as the two major parties in their manifestos both supported the referendum result.
So my observation is that for the Leave side to attempt to use the General Election result as a mandate for Brexit is somewhat disingenuous.
I thought before the referendum and still consider that over time - 10 / 20 years it will probably not matter that much whether UK is in or out of EU insofar as may things are concerned but there will be some upheaval getting to that stage. And it maybe in 20 years time we shall be able to look back and see with more clarity if leaving was the correct thing to do.
My further observation is that the politicians supporting both sides were so obviously wrong / pessimistic in their forecasts - so no WW3 or end of the world on one side, nor a simple exiting on the other side, that really should I have faith in any of them now.
Hey ho, long as I have my health.
I will reiterate @Hindsight ‘s point. A general election is about more than just Brexit. It’s about how you believe a future government will run a whole country and a whole economy. The pro-remain parties weren’t good enough on these wider issues to garner enough votes whilst the main parties had all committed to back Brexit (though still with no detail in their manifestos as to what “brexit“ actually meant).
I seriously considered abstaining but, as a believer in democracy, chose what in my opinion was the best of the worst.
Much like I voted in the referendum: I didn’t believe the headline promises of the Brexiteers, I wasn’t given any guidance about the detailed problems that might arise from a split with the EU and so, on balance (and despite my misgivings about some of the EU’s activities) voted for the best of the worst.
The difference, I suppose, is that if I (or the country) makes a wrong decision at a general election, they have another go to put it right in 5 years time.
With the referendum, it was one chance. Get it wrong and tough!
What none of us know is have we got it wrong.....?
I guess how 'hard' something feels to you always depends upon where you're sitting... .
Yes and 55% done on WTO rules outwith the EU (Source WTO head Roberto Azevedo) and growing internal market shrinking.
Imagine a train with 200 people on board. It’s a one-off journey from station X to station Y further down the track. It will arrive, anyone who wants to get off can do so and then it will return to where it started its journey from.
Now, as it pulls into station Y the conductor says that all those who wish to disembark must do so now whilst all those that wish to stay on the train should raise their right hand.
75 people get off the train while 69 raise their arm. 56 of the passengers neither get off the train nor raise their arm. Consequently, when the train gets back to it’s starting point, station X, there are 125 people disembark there.
What percentage of passengers chose to get off the train at station Y?
You are quite right on the aims of the EEC and the treaty of Rome. However Edward Heath openly admitted in later life that the aims of the EEC were downplayed as much as possible as if they had been aired more widely he could not have got the UK to vote to join in the 1975 referendum.
It was, I think, Churchill who made remarks to effect that "Great Britain is not European and not American, it is a small island that sits culturally between the two and will never resolve fully its relationship with either" I think he was right.
Walt, I would accept and endorse those sentiments as they are made through the lens of history and if you accept the lens of history, we have never been willing Europeans. So why can't we try to be good neighbours instead?
You cannot understand a country without understanding its culture, and culture is to a country as character is to a person. There are national characteristics and I believe historical gravity is returning to countries all over Europe and further afield. As an anecdote to support this I vividly remember attending a meeting run by Daltons somewhere in Dorset in the very late eighties.
The keynote speaker was a high ranking USDA official. He gave a prophetic address about China and said ( I Paraphrase ) "Culturally and historically , China is not a communist country, it is a country with lots of human capital, and when its historic gravity returns it will turn into power house that will be feared by the rest of the world"
Hard Brexit is short hand for leaving the single market, the customs union and the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. Thereby ending free movement of people. Soft Brexit means retaining single market access to some degree whjch means retaining free movement of people. If I have over simplified it is because Brexiters “don’t do complex”.
Correct. The other 62.5% were given the option to leave but we’re happy to stay on the train.
Try this one then.
The party that would stop brexit and campaigned against it got decimated.
Because they ignored their core support built under the leftish Charles Kennedy to put the pig shagging bullington club into power.
This can only have been said by an Englishman - Scotland, Northern Ireland and (more marginally) Wales have different ideas. No one else goes around quoting Churchill, for instance.
Thus Brexit is an English cultural problem. No one knows the answer to it.
But ignoring the Scots, etc has lead, and will lead, to greater problems.
It made a huge impression on me that London, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales have all declared for staying in the Single Market/Customs Union, whilst the desperation to exit same exists predominantly within English shires.