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British friesian bulls

bovine

Member
Location
North
The genetic progress of the holstein breed in the last 20 years and meant less profit.
Lower lactation numbers.
Greater disease.
More DAs
Less fertility
20 years ago things were looking bad for Holstein cows, I wholeheartedly agree. They turned a corner ~10 years ago when they realised picking just for milk and production may not be a great idea. The problem now is people think they are still bad - this is not the case.

I have absolutely no doubt that the modern Holstein cow is by far the most profitable cow you can put on practically any farm. With wise breeding you can have volume, quality, longevity and health. That doesn't mean lots of people have a 12,000 litre cow, fail to look after it to its optimum and then moan when the wheels fall off. The old analogy of running a Ferrari on chip fat.
 

Stinker

Member
20 years ago things were looking bad for Holstein cows, I wholeheartedly agree. They turned a corner ~10 years ago when they realised picking just for milk and production may not be a great idea. The problem now is people think they are still bad - this is not the case.

I have absolutely no doubt that the modern Holstein cow is by far the most profitable cow you can put on practically any farm. With wise breeding you can have volume, quality, longevity and health. That doesn't mean lots of people have a 12,000 litre cow, fail to look after it to its optimum and then moan when the wheels fall off. The old analogy of running a Ferrari on chip fat.

The PLI of top proven Holstein Bulls has not progressed that much since Oman and Ramos 20 years ago. No genomic Bulls have health traits anywhere near top proven Bulls like Erdman. They may give more milk, however if you can't feed for it what's the point.

More importantly what relevance is a PLI of a Holstein bull predominantly tested in a high yielding indoor situation got with say a low yielding outdoor system because I doubt much American holstein semen gets used on these types of farms.

Whilst I think genomics are a useful tool for breeding companies it is of little benifit to farmers to have up to the second genetics. Most farmers would be better off using proven genetics especially if they are keeping all of their replacements. One bad breeding decision can take years to reverse so why take any risks, that's the breeding companies job
 

bovine

Member
Location
North
Whilst I think genomics are a useful tool for breeding companies it is of little benifit to farmers to have up to the second genetics. Most farmers would be better off using proven genetics especially if they are keeping all of their replacements. One bad breeding decision can take years to reverse so why take any risks, that's the breeding companies job

You're not getting it, and I CBA to explain. Honestly with genomics on both sides gains are rapid. You use many genomic bulls and that spreads the risk. Proven bulls are fine until they are everywhere and something like HCD from Storm rears its ugly head.
 

More to life

Member
Location
Somerset
The PLI of top proven Holstein Bulls has not progressed that much since Oman and Ramos 20 years ago. No genomic Bulls have health traits anywhere near top proven Bulls like Erdman. They may give more milk, however if you can't feed for it what's the point.

More importantly what relevance is a PLI of a Holstein bull predominantly tested in a high yielding indoor situation got with say a low yielding outdoor system because I doubt much American holstein semen gets used on these types of farms.

Whilst I think genomics are a useful tool for breeding companies it is of little benifit to farmers to have up to the second genetics. Most farmers would be better off using proven genetics especially if they are keeping all of their replacements. One bad breeding decision can take years to reverse so why take any risks, that's the breeding companies job
Erdman is around 20% higher than Oman (Oman being a freak) and the top genomic bulls are +15% above Erdman
 

Stinker

Member
You're not getting it, and I CBA to explain. Honestly with genomics on both sides gains are rapid. You use many genomic bulls and that spreads the risk. Proven bulls are fine until they are everywhere and something like HCD from Storm rears its ugly head.

Genomic Bulls only work on average. For everyone that is better than you expect you get ones that are worse. So you will get bad heifers as well as good. What I'm saying is it makes more sense to have more consistent proven slower improvement than it is having half of your heifers worse than you expect.

Nearly all of these genomic bull parents have never even be tested in UK farms never mind lower output UK grass based sytems. UK farmers should use predominately UK tested genetics. Otherwise you might just breed a cow that you have to keep in a shed 365 days of the year and feed maize silage....oh wait that's already happened so maybe UK proven sires aren't even relevant to the minority of grass based UK farms.
 

Stinker

Member
You're not getting it, and I CBA to explain. Honestly with genomics on both sides gains are rapid. You use many genomic bulls and that spreads the risk. Proven bulls are fine until they are everywhere and something like HCD from Storm rears its ugly head.


Erdman is around 20% higher than Oman (Oman being a freak) and the top genomic bulls are +15% above Erdman

There is PLI progress but no obvious health progress post Erdman but that's not my point. My point is choose slower proven progress over erratic quicker average progress. Those bad heifers will drag you down more than the better ones drag you up at farm level. its almost impossible to choose a bull on individual traits when it comes to genomics. Let the ai companies worry about progress. I still believe in choosing the top proven sire however.
 

Sid

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
South Molton
There is PLI progress but no obvious health progress post Erdman but that's not my point. My point is choose slower proven progress over erratic quicker average progress. Those bad heifers will drag you down more than the better ones drag you up at farm level. its almost impossible to choose a bull on individual traits when it comes to genomics. Let the ai companies worry about progress. I still believe in choosing the top proven sire however.
And don't breed from heifers IMHO.
Proven bull on a proven cow.
 

More to life

Member
Location
Somerset
There is PLI progress but no obvious health progress post Erdman but that's not my point. My point is choose slower proven progress over erratic quicker average progress. Those bad heifers will drag you down more than the better ones drag you up at farm level. its almost impossible to choose a bull on individual traits when it comes to genomics. Let the ai companies worry about progress. I still believe in choosing the top proven sire however.
That's a valid choice, I'm to early into genomics to stand my ground but I'm convinced that herd progress will be much greater.Proven bulls still breed duds,as for individual traits I've almost given up trying genomics isn't much fun to breed with.
 

Stinker

Member
That's a valid choice, I'm to early into genomics to stand my ground but I'm convinced that herd progress will be much greater.Proven bulls still breed duds,as for individual traits I've almost given up trying genomics isn't much fun to breed with.

Who know where it will end. My main gripe is with the testing system. I just can't see how Bulls tested in predominantly one system can be relevant to another.
 

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Webinar: Expanded Sustainable Farming Incentive offer 2024 -26th Sept

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On Thursday 26th September, we’re holding a webinar for farmers to go through the guidance, actions and detail for the expanded Sustainable Farming Incentive (SFI) offer. This was planned for end of May, but had to be delayed due to the general election. We apologise about that.

Farming and Countryside Programme Director, Janet Hughes will be joined by policy leads working on SFI, and colleagues from the Rural Payment Agency and Catchment Sensitive Farming.

This webinar will be...
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