British friesian bulls

[bovine]

The genetic progress of the holstein breed in the last 20 years and meant less profit.
Lower lactation numbers.
Greater disease.
More DAs
Less fertility

20 years ago things were looking bad for Holstein cows, I wholeheartedly agree. They turned a corner ~10 years ago when they realised picking just for milk and production may not be a great idea. The problem now is people think they are still bad - this is not the case.

I have absolutely no doubt that the modern Holstein cow is by far the most profitable cow you can put on practically any farm. With wise breeding you can have volume, quality, longevity and health. That doesn't mean lots of people have a 12,000 litre cow, fail to look after it to its optimum and then moan when the wheels fall off. The old analogy of running a Ferrari on chip fat.

 

[kp_n_plghng]

All breeds have their pros and cons there is no 'most profitable cow'. Probably the majority are best off with Holstein but certainly not any farm - to suggest this is the case is most foolish.

 

[Friesianfan]

Holsteins are loved by vets. They would be a lot poorer without them

 

[bovine]

Holsteins are loved by vets. They would be a lot poorer without them

Done 3 DAs this month - 2 fat Frisians and 1 jersey cross. Way more Holsteins in the practice than all the others put together.

 

[Rossymons]

Done 3 DAs this month - 2 fat Frisians and 1 jersey cross. Way more Holsteins in the practice than all the others put together.

Cidrs and cyclix? Lameness?

 

[Friesianfan]

Done 3 DAs this month - 2 fat Frisians and 1 jersey cross. Way more Holsteins in the practice than all the others put together.

Probably shouldn't say this but I've never had a DA. How many lactations do Holsteins average? My herd average seven. Holsteins would melt on my system

 

[cattow]

I missed the bit when we were talking about the poorer, fatter, less productive cousin of the Holstein.

Chad compares well with his gangly cousins! On the British Friesian base he is £519 PLI and +4.4 Fertility Index - on a Holstein base he is equivalent to £470 PLI and +18.7 FI.

 

[Friesianfan]

Chad compares well with his gangly cousins! On the British Friesian base he is £519 PLI and +4.4 Fertility Index - on a Holstein base he is equivalent to £470 PLI and +18.7 FI.

18.7!!

 

[Rossymons]

In other words, the heifer calf is pregnant before its even born

 

[Stinker]

20 years ago things were looking bad for Holstein cows, I wholeheartedly agree. They turned a corner ~10 years ago when they realised picking just for milk and production may not be a great idea. The problem now is people think they are still bad - this is not the case.

I have absolutely no doubt that the modern Holstein cow is by far the most profitable cow you can put on practically any farm. With wise breeding you can have volume, quality, longevity and health. That doesn't mean lots of people have a 12,000 litre cow, fail to look after it to its optimum and then moan when the wheels fall off. The old analogy of running a Ferrari on chip fat.

The PLI of top proven Holstein Bulls has not progressed that much since Oman and Ramos 20 years ago. No genomic Bulls have health traits anywhere near top proven Bulls like Erdman. They may give more milk, however if you can't feed for it what's the point.

More importantly what relevance is a PLI of a Holstein bull predominantly tested in a high yielding indoor situation got with say a low yielding outdoor system because I doubt much American holstein semen gets used on these types of farms.

Whilst I think genomics are a useful tool for breeding companies it is of little benifit to farmers to have up to the second genetics. Most farmers would be better off using proven genetics especially if they are keeping all of their replacements. One bad breeding decision can take years to reverse so why take any risks, that's the breeding companies job

 

[More to life]

18.7!!

Chad does compare very well and is a break through BF but +20 is a top end Holstein fertility score now

 

[bovine]

Whilst I think genomics are a useful tool for breeding companies it is of little benifit to farmers to have up to the second genetics. Most farmers would be better off using proven genetics especially if they are keeping all of their replacements. One bad breeding decision can take years to reverse so why take any risks, that's the breeding companies job

You're not getting it, and I CBA to explain. Honestly with genomics on both sides gains are rapid. You use many genomic bulls and that spreads the risk. Proven bulls are fine until they are everywhere and something like HCD from Storm rears its ugly head.

 

[More to life]

The PLI of top proven Holstein Bulls has not progressed that much since Oman and Ramos 20 years ago. No genomic Bulls have health traits anywhere near top proven Bulls like Erdman. They may give more milk, however if you can't feed for it what's the point.

More importantly what relevance is a PLI of a Holstein bull predominantly tested in a high yielding indoor situation got with say a low yielding outdoor system because I doubt much American holstein semen gets used on these types of farms.

Whilst I think genomics are a useful tool for breeding companies it is of little benifit to farmers to have up to the second genetics. Most farmers would be better off using proven genetics especially if they are keeping all of their replacements. One bad breeding decision can take years to reverse so why take any risks, that's the breeding companies job

Erdman is around 20% higher than Oman (Oman being a freak) and the top genomic bulls are +15% above Erdman

 

[Stinker]

You're not getting it, and I CBA to explain. Honestly with genomics on both sides gains are rapid. You use many genomic bulls and that spreads the risk. Proven bulls are fine until they are everywhere and something like HCD from Storm rears its ugly head.

Genomic Bulls only work on average. For everyone that is better than you expect you get ones that are worse. So you will get bad heifers as well as good. What I'm saying is it makes more sense to have more consistent proven slower improvement than it is having half of your heifers worse than you expect.

Nearly all of these genomic bull parents have never even be tested in UK farms never mind lower output UK grass based sytems. UK farmers should use predominately UK tested genetics. Otherwise you might just breed a cow that you have to keep in a shed 365 days of the year and feed maize silage....oh wait that's already happened so maybe UK proven sires aren't even relevant to the minority of grass based UK farms.

 

[Stinker]

You're not getting it, and I CBA to explain. Honestly with genomics on both sides gains are rapid. You use many genomic bulls and that spreads the risk. Proven bulls are fine until they are everywhere and something like HCD from Storm rears its ugly head.

Erdman is around 20% higher than Oman (Oman being a freak) and the top genomic bulls are +15% above Erdman

There is PLI progress but no obvious health progress post Erdman but that's not my point. My point is choose slower proven progress over erratic quicker average progress. Those bad heifers will drag you down more than the better ones drag you up at farm level. its almost impossible to choose a bull on individual traits when it comes to genomics. Let the ai companies worry about progress. I still believe in choosing the top proven sire however.

 

[Sid]

There is PLI progress but no obvious health progress post Erdman but that's not my point. My point is choose slower proven progress over erratic quicker average progress. Those bad heifers will drag you down more than the better ones drag you up at farm level. its almost impossible to choose a bull on individual traits when it comes to genomics. Let the ai companies worry about progress. I still believe in choosing the top proven sire however.

And don't breed from heifers IMHO.
Proven bull on a proven cow.

 

[More to life]

There is PLI progress but no obvious health progress post Erdman but that's not my point. My point is choose slower proven progress over erratic quicker average progress. Those bad heifers will drag you down more than the better ones drag you up at farm level. its almost impossible to choose a bull on individual traits when it comes to genomics. Let the ai companies worry about progress. I still believe in choosing the top proven sire however.

That's a valid choice, I'm to early into genomics to stand my ground but I'm convinced that herd progress will be much greater.Proven bulls still breed duds,as for individual traits I've almost given up trying genomics isn't much fun to breed with.

 

[bovine]

And don't breed from heifers IMHO.
Proven bull on a proven cow.

Wow.

You still use a 3 legged stool and a bucket? Oil lamps?

 

[Stinker]

That's a valid choice, I'm to early into genomics to stand my ground but I'm convinced that herd progress will be much greater.Proven bulls still breed duds,as for individual traits I've almost given up trying genomics isn't much fun to breed with.

Who know where it will end. My main gripe is with the testing system. I just can't see how Bulls tested in predominantly one system can be relevant to another.

 

[Holsteinfriesian90]

I don't mind using genomic Bulls that are sired by a proven bull just not so keen on using Bulls that are sired by genomic Bulls.