Buying Stock Bulls

[bovine]

I'm a simple commercial breeder last 2 bulls cost £5500. Interested in one that is £7500 at the moment. Is that too much? Looks a bloody good bull to me.

As 'insurance' you could always jump him and freeze some semen. We had a guy do so and the cost was between £1-2/straw. Far cheaper than anything you could buy commercially and will sit in liquid nitrogen virtually forever.

Guards against broken legs or periods of infertility.

 

[S J H]

I paid £1600 for one earlier in the year, he's 4 year old, I bought him at foot with his dam, then sold him locally at 2, saw him in market on a Saturday, I was going to go up to newark after, but I thought what's the point? There was one there I was keen on, which made 3.5k which I'd have paid, but I wouldn't go much past that for a commercial bull. Our other bull was 2.5k at 2, both leave as good or better calves than a lot of AI bulls.

 

[CharcoalWally]

There's absolutely no correlation between a bull's purchase price and his ability to sire quality calves. Anyone who thinks that spending 10 000 guineas on a bull through public purchase is buying a guarantee of success either doesn't know cattle or is delusional.

The reason is that a lot of farmers are absolutely terrible at valuing breeding males. Go to any sale of bulls in public and you'll regularly see moderate bulls sell at £5000 plus while better quality bulls that will leave better calves go between £2000 - £3000.

A lot of farmers have little idea of what "type" of bull will "nick" in with their own cows. So a variety of differing types of bulls are purchased over the years leading to a self replacing herd of cows of all different types , shapes , sizes. This leads to a lack of uniformity and results in a herd requiring different management for different cow groups. Not satisfactory.

So , if you like a certain bull , then you have to stick with it regardless of price[within reason of course.] Personally , I love getting a bull for reasonable money. Plenty of others don't. If their choice stalls at 2000 in the ring , plenty of people start to get nervous. They start to wonder what's wrong with the bull. Have they missed something? Have others spotted a flaw that they've missed?

As said above , go with your gut. I breed for my own ideology. I know in my own mind what I want my calves to look like , therefore I know what I want my bull to look like. I never have anyone else in mind when I buy a bull. I never try to buy someone else's "type" , I never want to copy someone else's idea. I want my calves to look like mine. If they look like everyone else's , then that's a fail in my mind. You can't set your product apart in an overcrowded marketplace if your stock just look like everyone else's.

The pricetag is irrelevant if you can afford it. You either like a bull or you don't.

 

[harperfarmer]

I gave £4,600 for our first and currently only stock bull, good figures and a really nice, long, stretchy bull who's left some good calves. Generally feel that I'd give that £4,000 - £5,000 for the right sort of bull with figures to match, but equally cant help but think about my neighbour, who buys young bulls locally for £1,700- £2,000 and sells his suckled calves for around £850 average heifers and steers. If things go wrong, bull become infertile etc, then killing for £1,200- £1,400 makes those calves cheap to sire!

 

[Hampton]

trust your gut, if it feels like the right thing go for it. if it worries you, dont

Excellent advice (far better than mine).
If you are unsure, you will begrudge him the money he cost you every day!

 

[Hampton]

I gave £4,600 for our first and currently only stock bull, good figures and a really nice, long, stretchy bull who's left some good calves. Generally feel that I'd give that £4,000 - £5,000 for the right sort of bull with figures to match, but equally cant help but think about my neighbour, who buys young bulls locally for £1,700- £2,000 and sells his suckled calves for around £850 average heifers and steers. If things go wrong, bull become infertile etc, then killing for £1,200- £1,400 makes those calves cheap to sire!

I've got a cheap one here (replacement for the one I mentioned earlier). I needed a bull in a hurry and he was available. £1500 out of killerton Travis (genus lim). He looks pretty poor and we are not sure if he is entirely trust worthy, but if he produces some good calves (he went to some v good cows) then he will be worth it.
Last year I bought ten lim heifers from IOM and put them to bull. As my other two bulls were with cows all ready and I wanted heifers inside to get used to us, I put a bull out of our fat pen to them (7/8 lim). I have to say the calves look tremendous (we weaned them last month).

 

[GTB]

I'd rather pay good money for a bull than a ram. A run of the mill lamb is worth £60 to £80 but a run of the mill bullock/heifer can be anything up to £1400+ finished.

 

[wellingtonfarmer]

How man cows have you got? Insurance prem on that bull would be about £600 per year. How many years would it take him to serve 200 cows?
Personally I think if you have good cows then you only need a good bull if you are commercial, rather than an exceptional one.
I also think that many very good bulls are a damn site cheaper at auction than they are privately, but that is a separate story!

I'm after a terminal sure but... How do you get good cows without a good bull if ur a closed herd?

I would never say that a bull would be cheaper at auction, never seen it myself

 

[M-J-G]

If you want him and can afford him, get him bought.

If you dont want him, he's too dear at any money.

Much over 5k is getting hard to justify in commercial herds. If you're in "the club" in the pedigree world you can pay what you want to be seen paying.

One of our best bulls was bought as an unborn calf in a cow bought for 400gns with a heifer calf at foot. Another was good bull £1300. I'm more proud of these purchases than I would of a buying a bull at 20 grand and selling sons for 3.

 

[DB67]

Bought our last 4 or 5 charolois privately but unsure if it's always the right way, especially when you see sale averages at bull sales.

Problem with Bulls at sales is they are over fed and dressed.

Need to weigh up pros and cons.

Another thing with Bulls is it takes 18 months to actually get proper results from your purchase.

 

[Hampton]

I'm after a terminal sure but... How do you get good cows without a good bull if ur a closed herd?

I would never say that a bull would be cheaper at auction, never seen it myself

But do you need a bull of 7000+ to breed good cows?

I disagree about the auctions, I know some good bulls that were bought at Builth earlier this year that cost less than what the farmer was asking for them on farm.

 

[M-J-G]

But do you need a bull of 7000+ to breed good cows?

Nope!!!!!

 

[Henarar]

Nope!!!!!

but you can't buy one under 3k or so I was told

 

[Spartacus]

Most we paid for a bull is 3000 guineas, turned out to be a good investment, I personally would pay 4k max if it was the right bull for me.

Im sure I read somewhere once that the limit should be 8 calves value at weaning (so if they are probably going to be good calves £800x8=£6400).

 

[CharcoalWally]

But do you need a bull of 7000+ to breed good cows?

I disagree about the auctions, I know some good bulls that were bought at Builth earlier this year that cost less than what the farmer was asking for them on farm.

My best cow breeders so far came in at 3000 and 3600 at public auction. I've got bulling heifers at home off a bull that cost me £2200 and they look like some of the best heifers I've had yet.

Was at a sale of Simmental cows in the late Summer. The stock bulls in that herd would have regularly been bought in the 5000 plus range , but you could not have told that looking at the cows. Very disappointing. Worst of all was that a certain % of the cow herd came off one stock bull from a famous herd and his daughters simply were not milking their calves.

It's not how much you spend , it's what you buy that counts.

 

[M-J-G]

but you can't buy one under 3k or so I was told

between 3 and 7 should give you plenty of scope

I wouldnt like to be selling too many at sales for less than 3k these days, thats for sure.

 

[cattow]

British Friesian bulls with high PLI £2000+, brother in AI £3000ish

 

[CharcoalWally]

At todays production costs to get to a sale , or even to sell at home in a lot of cases , my bull bought at £2200 means that somebody else takes a fair sized loss.

 

[wellingtonfarmer]

But do you need a bull of 7000+ to breed good cows?

I disagree about the auctions, I know some good bulls that were bought at Builth earlier this year that cost less than what the farmer was asking for them on farm.

I'm not buying a bull to breed cows.

I hate buying at auction for numerous reasons, over fed fat bulls, don't get to see kind of farm there from or the bulls mothers. You never end up with the bull You want as someone runs you too far too high a price. You end up panic buying when you fail to buy your chosen bull.

 

[wellingtonfarmer]

Surely if you can buy a bull that will wean 10+kgs heavier slightly better grade and give you less calving problems then that bull is priceless?