Buying Stock Bulls

[Hampton]

I'm not buying a bull to breed cows.

I hate buying at auction for numerous reasons, over fed fat bulls, don't get to see kind of farm there from or the bulls mothers. You never end up with the bull You want as someone runs you too far too high a price. You end up panic buying when you fail to buy your chosen bull.

Sorry, I thought you're previous post said you breed your own cows?

 

[wellingtonfarmer]

Sorry, I thought you're previous post said you breed your own cows?

I do but I'm in the market for a charolais

 

[M-J-G]

I'm not buying a bull to breed cows.

I hate buying at auction for numerous reasons, over fed fat bulls, don't get to see kind of farm there from or the bulls mothers. You never end up with the bull You want as someone runs you too far too high a price. You end up panic buying when you fail to buy your chosen bull.

I almost always buy a bull when I don't need one.

I tend to make better choices when I know I can walk away if something doesn't go the way I want it to.

 

[M-J-G]

I do but I'm in the market for a charolais

Can you educate me on how you can tell that on the day of purchase?

 

[wellingtonfarmer]

Can you educate me on how you can tell that on the day of purchase?

What do you mean?

 

[M-J-G]

What do you mean?

I was wondering how you can tell on the day of purchase, that the bull has the ability to produce those better calves.

 

[wellingtonfarmer]

I was wondering how you can tell on the day of purchase, that the bull has the ability to produce those better calves.

You cross your fingers and pray!

Educated guess. Same as most things you invest in, you never know whether it was a good investment until the time you sell it

I don't claim to be the best stockman in the world. I just try and put round pegs in round holes

 

[M-J-G]

You cross your fingers and pray!

Educated guess. Same as most things you invest in, you never know whether it was a good investment until the time you sell it

I don't claim to be the best stockman in the world. I just try and put round pegs in round holes

Same here

 

[juke]

Hi all ,I'm new here but along term reader of thise forum n this thread really caught my intrest. My question to you all is what determines your cost of a quality stock bull. A bull at Stirling that's been pushed to the max.or an animal that has high postive ebvs.

 

[M-J-G]

I look for a bull that I like, I prefer him not to be fed much at all if possible.

On the EBV front, unless his parents etc. have large numbers of recorded relations, the EBVs for an young bull at sale time are worth very little, so I don't pay much attention.

I don't usually buy at bull sales as I like to see the herd that a bull is from, and his mother would be of huge interest to me.
To see a good type of bull who is out of a good type of cow with a good calf at her foot is worth more to me than any EBV. Especially if the breeder has kept all of the females of that line for himself.

 

[GenuineRisk]

Most we paid for a bull is 3000 guineas, turned out to be a good investment, I personally would pay 4k max if it was the right bull for me.

Im sure I read somewhere once that the limit should be 8 calves value at weaning (so if they are probably going to be good calves £800x8=£6400).

Good Post.

As a farm which is hoping to produce consistently good bulls for sale on to other herds or AI studs, we do have a 'minimum' price of around £3k. Why ? Because to be able to sell bulls we are confident about and will stand behind, we will also produce a percentage of 'also rans' which get steered or sent for kill at around two for less than that figure. We don't produce a particular 'type' - rather we have two or three 'types' on this farm because we have two or three different end markets - AI stud, dairy herds and suckler herds and then there's the very occasional pedigree herd to consider as well!! I can hear snorts of derision from here, saying one bull should fit all requirements but that isn't the case, as every buyer who comes here will have a slightly different vision of the bull he wants for his cows and every herd has a different mix of sucklers in particular. dairy herds are easier to cater for! When we started this herd we all were in agreement that we wanted as varied a genetic base as we could afford to acquire, as this breed can be limited genetically, especially with the extensive genetic testing for faults now getting more sophisticated. We usually have bullls with varying degrees of muscling as some are happy to have quite an extreme bull and put the time and effort into his herd management for the added profit but that type of management doesn't suit everyone and nor should it - others want to be as confident as they can be that the bull will be hands off when calving because that's the style of management that suits their circumstances/skills.

The overall aim is to produce quality bulls that will produce good quality calves without calving problems, ie calves born small but that grow like maggots. I'd guess this is the same for every pedigree breeder out there who does the job right. It takes years to know which female lines consistently will produce you the goods and then not to blow it by using the wrong bull on them ! Which means a few bulls which don't make our grade because we sure as hell don't get it right every time! There's no point in selling something cheaply we're not happy with and wouldn't use ourselves because we want - and have - customers coming back to us for their second, third, fourth bulls.

Then there's the heifer that you also produce to consider. In our breed, white heifers are not fashionable - God knows why because they're al red when they're dead but to produce those dairy bulls the AI studs all want, we obviously get white heifers! Some we retain but we can't keep all of them, so they will sell for below what we consider to be a price we would like to get for a quality heifer and which we would get easily if it was a coloured one!!

So basic accounting practice dictates all these maybe less obvious factors needed to be costed in as well as the obvious direct costs and I can't really see how you can charge less, unless you're in the hobby herd bracket and happy days if you are, as long as you're producing sound stock, then you can charge whatever you want to!


That cliche you pay peanuts and you gets monkeys mainly holds true - in our breed at least !

 

[CharcoalWally]

Hi all ,I'm new here but along term reader of thise forum n this thread really caught my intrest. My question to you all is what determines your cost of a quality stock bull. A bull at Stirling that's been pushed to the max.or an animal that has high postive ebvs.

Neither of the above for me , because they can both be the road to disappointment.

The feeding issue is possibly as big a headache as it's ever been. I couldn't really tell you what % of sale bulls fail in their first year but talking to auctioneers , insurance brokers and other farmers , it's far , far too high. So , buy a hard fed sale bull if you must , but buyer beware.

After 20 plus odd years of trying to match up a bull's EBV's on purchase with his subsequent on farm performance , I've now thrown in the towel on that one. It just hasn't happened.

It's not what they say about the bull on the day you buy him that tells you if the figures are accurate. Throw your catalogue in the drawer when you get home , and then dig it out three years later. Look at the scores again and ask yourself if that's the bull you bought.

No doubt some of you will say yes. But I'm afraid I can't .

 

[Matt]

we sell a few bulls, first rule for us is, if i wouldnt use him i dont expect anyone else to. we are probably over hard on ourselves. if someone comes along and want something cheap they can look in the killing pen but i point out what i think is wrong with him. as others said its personal choice too.
We dont feed up our bulls as we have been caught before,
We bought the bull in my pic as he produces good milking heifers but also good bulls too. he is going to be a hard bull to replace.
as we are on a heath scheme, we have last year synconised a few batches of heifers and let some of our young bulls serve them, and as it happened had some people ring about bulls and we could hand on heart say those bulls are fully functioning as they stopped the heifers they were with. that gave them confidence he was a worker, And what he saw he got.

 

[M-J-G]

Most we paid for a bull is 3000 guineas, turned out to be a good investment, I personally would pay 4k max if it was the right bull for me.

Im sure I read somewhere once that the limit should be 8 calves value at weaning (so if they are probably going to be good calves £800x8=£6400).

A few have told me 10 calves, most who have quoted me that were either selling bulls or just after buying an expensive bull!!!

That may have been true when you could keep a suckler for a year for very little money. With calves at over a grand, I'd need to be in a very kind mood to consider the paying the price of either 8 or 10 calves for a bull.

 

[le bon paysan]

A few have told me 10 calves, most who have quoted me that were either selling bulls or just after buying an expensive bull!!!

That may have been true when you could keep a suckler for a year for very little money. With calves at over a grand, I'd need to be in a very kind mood to consider the paying the price of either 8 or 10 calves for a bull.

Agree , €8000 or there abouts is more than I can justify on commercial cows. Around €5000 is the most realistically with prices as they are. And you dont have to pay that. Trade is starting to fall out of bed here, just sold 300kg males at €2,75, first lot of the season went for €3,05

 

[CharcoalWally]

A few have told me 10 calves, most who have quoted me that were either selling bulls or just after buying an expensive bull!!!

That may have been true when you could keep a suckler for a year for very little money. With calves at over a grand, I'd need to be in a very kind mood to consider the paying the price of either 8 or 10 calves for a bull.

That may be true these days Martin , but , to be fair to those you're talking about , it was indeed the price of 10 calves that was always quoted as a rule of thumb to guide you. In Scotland anyway.

And you know how tight we are.

 

[CharcoalWally]

Mind you , come to think about it , doesn't sound that we're that tight compared to certain Northern Irish people!!! 8 calves!!! Daylight robbers!!!

 

[juke]

The other thing I also wondered was how much emphasis or even if people bother to check a herds health status for johnes and bvd, which I would have thought should be the most important thing ahead of anything else. I do agree on the ebv front in regards to what they actually mean and we have been left scratching our heads at Times.

 

[Henarar]

The other thing I also wondered was how much emphasis or even if people bother to check a herds health status for johnes and bvd, which I would have thought should be the most important thing ahead of anything else. I do agree on the ebv front in regards to what they actually mean and we have been left scratchning our heads at Times.

yea test for both before we buy anything
I like the ped cattle to have good EBVs or at least average cos when your selling them some folk look at them but much more important than that is I have to like what I am buying

 

[M-J-G]

The other thing I also wondered was how much emphasis or even if people bother to check a herds health status for johnes and bvd, which I would have thought should be the most important thing ahead of anything else. I do agree on the ebv front in regards to what they actually mean and we have been left scratching our heads at Times.

If I see a herd thats been testing for johnes and keeps finding it I won't consider buying from them, I wouldn't waste my time wondering about those who can't be bothered testing at all.

I know many herds that have been testing for 10 years and have never been R1, the status formerly known as "monitored free". So they are obviously finding positive animals at least every two years.

I'd be looking for at least 5 years in R1, longer would be better.

BVD is obviously a concern, but an easier one to test for and protect from.

As for EBVs, there are rather many who seriously misunderstand them and their limitations. Buyers and seller alike!!!! Some will pass up great bulls because they have poor figures, but their figures are based on a tiny gathering of information, others will buy very average bulls because they have good figures, which too can be based on a tiny amount of information.