Carb-free/Atkins/Keto diets - any advice

[ollie989898]

Indeed. However, you're missing a load of stuff there.

In the US over a third of daily calories are now coming from seed oils, mostly the industrially processed type. We're not far behind. They now have fat cells that are 20% linoleic acid (omega 6). This is a serious problem for cell membrane integrity as cells with high linoleic acid content become too soft. Polulations who have never eaten these seed oils typically have 3.8% in their cells. Linoleic acid is 40x more susceptible to oxidation that oleic acid (monounsaturated). Linoleic acid is highly inflammatory which is a serious problem on its own.

Prior to 1980 hardly anyone had non-alcoholic fatty liver disease. Now it's estimated that around 45% of Americans have it to a degree. There is a Randomised Control Trial in the literature ( soz don't have the actual link) where every participant had NAFLD (as above). They removed linoleic acid from their diets and got a 100% cure rate.

Small amounts essential, large amounts terrible.

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Those statistics, however nicely they graph, don't automatically demonstrate an association however. Because this is clearly a complicated (and long term) issue it is impossible to say with any certainty if they are associated, causal or simply cofounders or even totally unrelated. It is obvious the Western diet has increased in calorie content steadily since WW2 and the rise in the quantity of food available and the degree to which foods are processed has also been exponential.

Would you agree that the amount of sugars (simple carbs) people consume has risen over the exact same timeframe and the graph of it would probably be very similar to the one here? The rise in commercial beet and cane plantations is historical fact as well. I bet they show the same kind of rise.

I bet average bodyweight or body mass index has probably increased similarly as well. There is a plethora of factors in play here. It's no secret that diabetes is far more common in people who are obese, fat is not an inert substance, it is an organ in of itself and contributes to insulin resistance (and high blood sugar is inflammatory as well, I simply don't know but I'd hazard a guess that it is this inflammation pretty strongly linked to atherosclerosis- the cause of many a malady- as well).

The influence of dietary fat on insulin resistance - PubMed

Dietary fat has been implicated in the development of insulin resistance in both animals and humans. Most, although not all, studies suggest that higher levels of total fat in the diet result in greater whole-body insulin resistance. Although, in practice, obesity may complicate the relationship...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Dietary fat has been implicated in the development of insulin resistance in both animals and humans. Most, although not all, studies suggest that higher levels of total fat in the diet result in greater whole-body insulin resistance.

 

[DaveGrohl]

But linoleic fatty acids are Omega 6 fatty acids. They are essential to health as well. If you are saying should we stop frying food (especially processed foods) in oils per se then yes, I would agree with you. These are extremely calories dense substances and should not be appearing in our diet in large quantities as it will contribute to becoming obese. I'm not convinced eating a shed load of olive oil or peanut oil instead of sunflower, corn or other oils is the way forward- as I said before, it seems a whole lot more complex than that.

A good step forward for people is to simply eat less.

Well the quality evidence points to cold pressed olive oil as a positive for health. It also points to too much omega 6 as causing serious and growing health problems. There are a lot of actual experts onto this, don't take my word for it, I'm merely a farmer with an interest in my health. I've been looking at this stuff for three years now in detail.

Your comment about calorie density is misleading, because it implies that calorie dense foods such as healthy fats will make people fatter. This is actually upside down. We've been told the wrong thing for decades cos it seems to make sense. The body doesn't work like that. Look again at that blood glucose graph I posted.

 

[ollie989898]

Well the quality evidence points to cold pressed olive oil as a positive for health. It also points to too much omega 6 as causing serious and growing health problems. There are a lot of actual experts onto this, don't take my word for it, I'm merely a farmer with an interest in my health. I've been looking at this stuff for three years now in detail.

Your comment about calorie density is misleading, because it implies that calorie dense foods such as healthy fats will make people fatter. This is actually upside down. We've been told the wrong thing for decades cos it seems to make sense. The body doesn't work like that. Look again at that blood glucose graph I posted.

Gram for gram there is more energy in fat than in sugar. I'm not convinced consuming a load of olive oil, cold pressed or otherwise, in fact, any oil is healthy for anyone. Oils are natures way of storing energy in tremendously concentrated amounts. If you consume a lot of them, you will put on weight.

 

[DaveGrohl]

Those statistics, however nicely they graph, don't automatically demonstrate an association however. Because this is clearly a complicated (and long term) issue it is impossible to say with any certainty if they are associated, causal or simply cofounders or even totally unrelated. It is obvious the Western diet has increased in calorie content steadily since WW2 and the rise in the quantity of food available and the degree to which foods are processed has also been exponential.

Would you agree that the amount of sugars (simple carbs) people consume has risen over the exact same timeframe and the graph of it would probably be very similar to the one here? The rise in commercial beet and cane plantations is historical fact as well. I bet they show the same kind of rise.

I bet average bodyweight or body mass index has probably increased similarly as well. There is a plethora of factors in play here. It's no secret that diabetes is far more common in people who are obese, fat is not an inert substance, it is an organ in of itself and contributes to insulin resistance (and high blood sugar is inflammatory as well, I simply don't know but I'd hazard a guess that it is this inflammation pretty strongly linked to atherosclerosis- the cause of many a malady- as well).

The influence of dietary fat on insulin resistance - PubMed

Dietary fat has been implicated in the development of insulin resistance in both animals and humans. Most, although not all, studies suggest that higher levels of total fat in the diet result in greater whole-body insulin resistance. Although, in practice, obesity may complicate the relationship...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Dietary fat has been implicated in the development of insulin resistance in both animals and humans. Most, although not all, studies suggest that higher levels of total fat in the diet result in greater whole-body insulin resistance.

You are clearly interested in this but I would respectfully suggest that you haven't looked into this in enough detail yet Ollie. The Dr Cate graph shows carbs plainly, indeed official sugar consumption figures don't actually suggest intakes are increasing, the opposite in fact. I'm with you all day long on association does not necessarily mean causation. That's at the root of so many dead-ends in nutrition it's untrue. It's why people are still scared of saturated fat etc.

Thing is, insulin resistance isn't a symptom of people becoming fat and getting type 2 diabetes, it's the root cause. Does your link discuss this? (Soz, I haven't read it) And it's being touted as the root cause of almost all of the metabolic diseases even including dementia. Dementia patients show improved cognitive skills when put on a keto diet for instance. There are RCTs that show this.

However we're getting a long way from the OP now. I originally tried to point out that eating more fat is positive for health, as long as it's healthy fat. Linoleic acid is the opposite when you go past a small daily amount.

 

[DaveGrohl]

Gram for gram there is more energy in fat than in sugar. I'm not convinced consuming a load of olive oil, cold pressed or otherwise, in fact, any oil is healthy for anyone. Oils are natures way of storing energy in tremendously concentrated amounts. If you consume a lot of them, you will put on weight.

Honestly Ollie? Are you still thinking fat = bad?

Nature doesn't provide any food that is both high in fat AND carbs. Zoe Harcombe points this out relentlessly. I'm totally with you (as is every enlightened expert) on eating lots of carbs AND lots of fats will make you fat. That's completely unarguable.

Ok, Dr Paul Mason is a great educator. Here's a slide from one of his vids on Youtube about RCTs looking at low carb-high fat diets vs low fat diets. You should actually watch the whole video if you're interested. He reviewed all the RCTs in the literature, of which there were 64ish? 32 didn't achieve statistical significance, but the other 32 ALL pointed at the low carb-high fat diet as achieving more weight loss. I'm not remotely an expert, I just watch and read stuff from people who are.

 

[DaveGrohl]

We can do the calorie thing too if you want? Look up Sam Feltham first though and his iso-caloric experiment.

 

[ollie989898]

You are clearly interested in this but I would respectfully suggest that you haven't looked into this in enough detail yet Ollie. The Dr Cate graph shows carbs plainly, indeed official sugar consumption figures don't actually suggest intakes are increasing, the opposite in fact. I'm with you all day long on association does not necessarily mean causation. That's at the root of so many dead-ends in nutrition it's untrue. It's why people are still scared of saturated fat etc.

Thing is, insulin resistance isn't a symptom of people becoming fat and getting type 2 diabetes, it's the root cause. Does your link discuss this? (Soz, I haven't read it) And it's being touted as the root cause of almost all of the metabolic diseases even including dementia. Dementia patients show improved cognitive skills when put on a keto diet for instance. There are RCTs that show this.

However we're getting a long way from the OP now. I originally tried to point out that eating more fat is positive for health, as long as it's healthy fat. Linoleic acid is the opposite when you go past a small daily amount.

Global sugar production from cane by year. That is scary. Basically a 4 fold increase. And that is just cane. Nothing from beet, not including high fructose corn syrups or any of the starches.

 

[DaveGrohl]

Global sugar production from cane by year. That is scary. Basically a 4 fold increase. And that is just cane. Nothing from beet, not including high fructose corn syrups or any of the starches.

View attachment 1086230

That's not per head though. There are plenty of refs which have analysed this. I was surprised myself that consumption isn't increasing (in western diets).

 

[ollie989898]

We can do the calorie thing too if you want? Look up Sam Feltham first though and his iso-caloric experiment.

There is more energy in a gram of fat than a gram of the finest caster sugar- more bonds to break and play with.

If someone could stomach it, they could try drinking 500ml of olive oil a day on top of their normal diet for a few months, they will gain weight.

 

[ollie989898]

That's not per head though. There are plenty of refs which have analysed this. I was surprised myself that consumption isn't increasing (in western diets).

This is a similar shape to your other graph.

 

[Lowland1]

This is a similar shape to your other graph.


View attachment 1086231

Which is why they are so fat.

 

[ollie989898]

Which is why they are so fat.

Bit more detail here:

 

[Lowland1]

I lived in the States for 18 months arrived weighing less than ten stone left weighing twelve. I worked for a Bean harvesting contractor moving around the south for several months. My work mate was about 30 and weighed 400 pounds if I’d stayed I probably would be about the same. No smorgasbord buffet was safe from us.

 

[ollie989898]

I lived in the States for 18 months arrived weighing less than ten stone left weighing twelve. I worked for a Bean harvesting contractor moving around the south for several months. My work mate was about 30 and weighed 400 pounds if I’d stayed I probably would be about the same. No smorgasbord buffet was safe from us.

Last time I went to the states for two weeks I am sure I came back heavier. Their version of McDonalds is different- if you look at the ingredients and compare them to the UK version they are different. Portion sizes in the USA are also a lot larger for your money.

 

[DaveGrohl]

Bit more detail here:

View attachment 1086232

Well, firstly my comments relating to sugar consumption were about recently. But both of your graphs shows recently thanks. Falling for around 25 years now. Other refs are available.

Secondly your 2nd graph shows obesity heading rapidly north while sugar consumption has dropped from 45kg per year to 35kg over that time window. Which is what I said earlier and what Dr Cate's graph shows also incidentally. Her graph also shows another food that correlates amazingly. Your graph also shows high fructose corn syrup dropping away quickly. A lot of experts in the US get particularly hot under the collar about this, so their message must be getting through. We don't have the same HFCS problem over here thankfully.

 

[ollie989898]

Well, firstly my comments relating to sugar consumption were about recently. But both of your graphs shows recently thanks. Falling for around 25 years now. Other refs are available.

Secondly your 2nd graph shows obesity heading rapidly north while sugar consumption has dropped from 45kg per year to 35kg over that time window. Which is what I said earlier and what Dr Cate's graph shows also incidentally. Her graph also shows another food that correlates amazingly. Your graph also shows high fructose corn syrup dropping away quickly. A lot of experts in the US get particularly hot under the collar about this, so their message must be getting through. We don't have the same HFCS problem over here thankfully.

 

[DaveGrohl]

Last time I went to the states for two weeks I am sure I came back heavier. Their version of McDonalds is different- if you look at the ingredients and compare them to the UK version they are different. Portion sizes in the USA are also a lot larger for your money.

Any time I've been to the States I've had to search for something on the menu that contained vegetables.

 

[DaveGrohl]

View attachment 1086241

? Why have you posted that?

 

[Lowland1]

Last time I went to the states for two weeks I am sure I came back heavier. Their version of McDonalds is different- if you look at the ingredients and compare them to the UK version they are different. Portion sizes in the USA are also a lot larger for your money.

I went in the early’90s. Food was everywhere at a time when in UK fast food was fish and chips. Petrol stations sold on petrol and people rarely ate out. It was a revelation 44 ounce sodas. All you can eat buffets. Pizzas delivered to where you were working. Obviously no one is doing an all you can eat frogs legs Tuesday in England but it was what the UK is now. Fill up with petrol and get some donuts or go to the KFC next door. Go to Wickes for some paint and get a bacon sandwich. Food it’s hard to avoid it no wonder there’s a obesity epidemic.

 

[DaveGrohl]

Honestly Ollie? Are you still thinking fat = bad?

Nature doesn't provide any food that is both high in fat AND carbs. Zoe Harcombe points this out relentlessly. I'm totally with you (as is every enlightened expert) on eating lots of carbs AND lots of fats will make you fat. That's completely unarguable.

Ok, Dr Paul Mason is a great educator. Here's a slide from one of his vids on Youtube about RCTs looking at low carb-high fat diets vs low fat diets. You should actually watch the whole video if you're interested. He reviewed all the RCTs in the literature, of which there were 64ish? 32 didn't achieve statistical significance, but the other 32 ALL pointed at the low carb-high fat diet as achieving more weight loss. I'm not remotely an expert, I just watch and read stuff from people who are.

View attachment 1086229

For those that are interested, this is the Dr Paul Mason video:

What's really revealing about all of these videos on Youtube is the sheer number of comments from people all round the world who've looked into this for themselves and improved their health, with large numbers actually reversing their T2 diabetes and coming off meds.