Cereals phosphate strategies

[Feldspar]

Sludge contains stuff that people throw down their toilets and sinks to kill bacteria - surely that isn't nice for soil ?

The only artificial fert I will be using is UAS liquid home made - not aware of any heavy metal content in at products I'm using to mix it ??

Look at the end of the first page and beginning of the second down to the table at the end of the second page for an idea on the heavy metal content of artificial fertilisers as well as sewage sludge:

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00254-007-1081-3#page-1

Not saying that there's a problem with heavy metals in conventional artificial fertiliser, just be aware that it is not 100% UAS that you're applying.

 

[Clive]

My point is that just because it's called ammonium sulphate doesn't mean that's all there is in it. The label tells you there's 21% N and 24% S (or whatever) but doesn't tell you what the remaining % is. All I'm saying is question what that other % is.

It is not necessarily the case that what people put into the sewage system will remain intact in the product that arrives on the farm. They have a treatment process about which I know almost nothing so simply point out that there is no guaranteed logical entailment, you have to do the research to find out whether or not it is nice for the soil. (Also question what people feed to chickens as well and convince yourself that chicken muck will not have the same problems as sewage sludge.)

Personally I would be concerned about things like endocrine disruptors (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19092195) in sludge as well as heavy metals.

It was Liz Stockdale that made me question sewage sludge - she mentioned the stuff that people flush down sinks and toilets which did make me think as most of those products are to kill bacteria, Sludge is just dehydrated and uv light treated a far as I know so I doubt these things get taken out but stand to be corrected if I'm wrong ?

 

[Feldspar]

It was Liz Stockdale that made me question sewage sludge - she mentioned the stuff that people flush down sinks and toilets which did make me think as most of those products are to kill bacteria, Sludge is just dehydrated and uv light treated a far as I know so I doubt these things get taken out but stand to be corrected if I'm wrong ?

Exactly, do question if it's safe but do a bit more than just taking her word for it. UV treatment will have quite a bit of an effect - look at the abstract of the first link I just put up.

Prions are also nasty things that it's worth checking aren't likely to be a problem in sludge or fibrophos as they are generally very stable.

ETA: Apologies I'm way off thread. Sorry DKA.

 

[Feldspar]

sorry, I can't. Because levels are absolutely irrelevant. And sorry, plants don't read what they should do.
for me it only counts how the plants& beasts react.
So I better shut up as I can't only look on indices. I will not post under this thread any more to not interfere.
York-Th.

Well plants seem to be able to communicate (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-22462855) and seem to be able to do maths (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-22991838) so I wouldn't be surprised if they don't enjoy a bit of Tolstoy in their spare time.

 

[Andrew K]

Sludge contains stuff that people throw down their toilets and sinks to kill bacteria - surely that isn't nice for soil ?

The only artificial fert I will be using is UAS liquid home made - not aware of any heavy metal content in at products I'm using to mix it ??

How much is sludge costing nowadays in bags or bulk Clive?

 

[franklin]

Broadcast MAP in August

This was what I was intending to do. Thus far, no joy in getting any MAP in the shed. Just keep getting asked if I want DAP instead. Other option would be to see what Omex or similar could produce and see what sort of pH it would be.

 

[Clive]

How much is sludge costing nowadays in bags or bulk Clive?

Cant recall the price it's only recently they have started to charge for it but chicken muck is cheaper now and compost is free locally (I know the compost is not much P use)

 

[Richard III]

What do you mean by tech grade? I'd be interested to know if you can find some MAP at the same price as DAP.

Haven't got round to asking but Origin claim to do it:

http://www.originfertilisers.co.uk/straights_mon_ammonium_phosphate

I hope you have more luck than me!

Origin were advertising MAP on their stand at Cereals, I went on and asked about it's availability. The woman I asked, answered with the question "are you a farmer?", when I replied that I was, she said "can you please leave the stand, it is for distributors only"

I quietly did as I was told, and shall do my best not to bother them again in the future.

 

[dontknowanything]

This was what I was intending to do. Thus far, no joy in getting any MAP in the shed. Just keep getting asked if I want DAP instead. Other option would be to see what Omex or similar could produce and see what sort of pH it would be.

I'll chase up my MAP leads early next week if I haven't heard by then

 

[Feldspar]

I hope you have more luck than me!

Origin were advertising MAP on their stand at Cereals, I went on and asked about it's availability. The woman I asked, answered with the question "are you a farmer?", when I replied that I was, she said "can you please leave the stand, it is for distributors only"

I quietly did as I was told, and shall do my best not to bother them again in the future.

Very nice of them!

 

[franklin]

MAP is also on the Bunn products list, but at Cereals the rep told me I wouldnt be getting any in a hurry.

 

[rob1]

I hope you have more luck than me!

Origin were advertising MAP on their stand at Cereals, I went on and asked about it's availability. The woman I asked, answered with the question "are you a farmer?", when I replied that I was, she said "can you please leave the stand, it is for distributors only"

I quietly did as I was told, and shall do my best not to bother them again in the future.

I would have told her that I distribute it around my fields

 

[dontknowanything]

OK, I have a confirmed source, from Bunns as it happens. Price is similar to DAP, call Jeremy on 07850 842122 if you're interested.

 

[franklin]

Will do. Thanks.

 

[SilliamWhale]

now in all the discussion on P needs to be spread I want to go a step back and look on some interactions:
how about Zi & Mg levels? Without both you are not getting any P into the plant
looking at all the soil results I got so far from the island I only can say that P is not the no 1 topic. In majority of cases it's the Mg.
And I can say that I see this connection as well over here. That is the reason that farmers which started with 10 t/ha of Wheat with good protein are now aiming for even higher yields and talk now about 1/3 of the normal spray program.
York-Th.

Then we head into Umostart territory. I find Umostart unaffordable for combinable crops.

 

[dontknowanything]

Then we head into Umostart territory. I find Umostart unaffordable for combinable crops.

Anything that costs money and doesn't increase yield is unaffordable.

 

[SilliamWhale]

Anything that costs money and doesn't increase yield is unaffordable.

plenty of people use things for "insurance purposes" - chemicals and fert and cultivations etc.

 

[dontknowanything]

plenty of people use things for "insurance purposes" - chemicals and fert and cultivations etc.

fine, as long as sometimes it increases yield. We never found that with Umostart, over years of trying it

 

[SilliamWhale]

To follow this on a little:

I don't think any wheat or barley I sow before 10th October particularly need starter. But as a second cereal it may be useful.
I suspect rape is ok as well if its plenty warm enough and not too late although I may have to do a 1" cultivation this year if its a touch wet.
Spring Wheat doesn't seem too bothered about it.
Spring Barley and Spring Rape in no till may benefit.

Having a conversation local merchant about it.

Says DAP @ £450-550t @ £50kg/acre = £25/acre
Umostart + Zinc 10kg/acre is = £30/acre plus "far more hit sites per sq cm of soil".. - .http://www.sipcamuk.co.uk/wp-conten...art-insert-John-Foster-LowRes-final-16112.pdf


I'm not convinced by the umostart argument, its a bit like pelleted lime for me, it has a place but your paying for the grinding up of a product. That said I'm not sure I can bring myself to put £25/acres worth of fert in the winter which may or may not make a difference but would 20kg DAP make enough difference? My drill can place solid fert easy enough right in the slot but I'm not keen on loading too many costs onto a crop up front as I don't think its the right way to go for autumn crops (would be happy enough placing more DAP in the spring)

My main source of soil P will be fibrophos and muck by the way this is more as pop up when times and conditions look less ideal.

 

[SilliamWhale]

By the way looking at that Umostart brochure - what is the relative nutrient load of 5g of Umostart compared to 5g N? Is there the same absolute amount of nutrient in 10kg of Umostart as 50kg of DAP? Or is just more finely ground