Cow down

[Bruce Almighty]

Dangerous territory I know but a question for sensible answers please .
Step back in time and we used to be able to get the CMPD bottles , why were they removed from sale , eu regs , drug licensing ? If it was eu regs , with Brexit what would it take to get these bottles back on sale ?
@bovine any veterinary reason they were removed ?

Can still get 20%C M D for sheep

 

[jimmer]

Can still get 20%C M D for sheep

too much phos kills sheep doesnt it ?

 

[Bruce Almighty]

too much phos kills sheep doesnt it ?

I think anything will kill a sheep

I hadn't heard the one about too much P though

 

[More to life]

What causes phos deficiency ?

 

[rc mx110]

What causes phos deficiency ?

Fat cows normally

 

[jimmer]

What causes phos deficiency ?

Acute phosphorus losses associated with hypophosphatemia are a well-recognized problem in high-yielding dairy cows at the onset of lactation. The sudden onset of phosphorus losses through the mammary gland at the onset of lactation and the decreased feed intake around parturition are believed to be the major contributors to periparturient hypophosphatemia of dairy cows. Nonetheless, periparturient hypophosphatemia has also been documented in mastectomized cows, indicating that other mechanisms, such as compartmental shifts, impaired intestinal absorption, or increased losses through the digestive or urinary tracts, must contribute to this phenomenon.

 

[Bruce Almighty]

Our vet reckons giving calcium to a phos cow makes the phos problem worse. Very fine balancing act between the two??

Yes heard that from vets too

Jersey herd I knew always fed high P minerals to dry cows to prevent milk fever

 

[buffalo_soldier]

Dangerous territory I know but a question for sensible answers please .
Step back in time and we used to be able to get the CMPD bottles , why were they removed from sale , eu regs , drug licensing ? If it was eu regs , with Brexit what would it take to get these bottles back on sale ?
@bovine any veterinary reason they were removed ?

I seem to remember it might have been shelf life.
Phos is much shorter than the others.

 

[More to life]

Acute phosphorus losses associated with hypophosphatemia are a well-recognized problem in high-yielding dairy cows at the onset of lactation. The sudden onset of phosphorus losses through the mammary gland at the onset of lactation and the decreased feed intake around parturition are believed to be the major contributors to periparturient hypophosphatemia of dairy cows. Nonetheless, periparturient hypophosphatemia has also been documented in mastectomized cows, indicating that other mechanisms, such as compartmental shifts, impaired intestinal absorption, or increased losses through the digestive or urinary tracts, must contribute to this phenomenon.

Last had one 15+ years ago no idea why not

 

[Princess Pooper]

Think I would have taken a blood before launching into phos - every downer cow we have ever thought had phosphorus problems came back normal.... Our vet can run the blood test through at the surgery so know quick enough whether its worth doing.. (Ca, Mg and P I think, not sure about other mins).

 

[bovine]

There was a very interesting talk at a conference I attended last year, showing injected calcium initially raised and then actually dropped blood calcium. I only inject now if they are on death's door and cannot swallow, otherwise I supplement orally.

Lots of people much cleverer than me don't believe phosphorus deficiency exists. Correct the calcium (orally) and the phosphorus will sort itself. I've measured lots of cows phosphorus level and I struggle to remember a low one. I've had more low in potassium. I suspect phosphorus is like homeopathy - give it and they get better - not that either is the actual cure.

I occasionally use phosphorus in cows, but not a lot. I wouldn't rush to in this case. I'd probably drench with a potassium containing rehydration solution, propylene glycol and perhaps give some steroid, depending on other signs and blood glucose/ketone levels.

 

[Aircooled]

One down here this morning.no MF here.boviphos down the throat.up in 2 hrs.

 

[bovine]

One down here this morning.no MF here.boviphos down the throat.up in 2 hrs.

You know that also contains calcium, right?

Without bloods I don't believe the cow was not short of calcium.

 

[Clay52]

There was a very interesting talk at a conference I attended last year, showing injected calcium initially raised and then actually dropped blood calcium. I only inject now if they are on death's door and cannot swallow, otherwise I supplement orally.

Lots of people much cleverer than me don't believe phosphorus deficiency exists. Correct the calcium (orally) and the phosphorus will sort itself. I've measured lots of cows phosphorus level and I struggle to remember a low one. I've had more low in potassium. I suspect phosphorus is like homeopathy - give it and they get better - not that either is the actual cure.

I occasionally use phosphorus in cows, but not a lot. I wouldn't rush to in this case. I'd probably drench with a potassium containing rehydration solution, propylene glycol and perhaps give some steroid, depending on other signs and blood glucose/ketone levels.

It's makes sense though. IV calcium and it sends calcium way past the ideal calcium level very quickly, very close to heart attack levels. The cow is going to stop releasing calcium and try and get rid of what you put in her so it overshoots the normal mark on the way back down and goes to low again.

You used to see it regularly with cows you would IV them and then have to do it every 24 hours for a few days as they kept going down.

If I listened to the same talk you did the recommendation was IV for down cows, oral for everything else but I give oral calcium to aleart down cows and that works fine too. They will usually be up on their own in 30min.

Dad used to love giving two bags, if one works two must be better right. Don't know how he didn't kill more cows.

 

[Aircooled]

You know that also contains calcium, right?

Without bloods I don't believe the cow was not short of calcium.

Point taken.When the cow is fairly bright and gets up half way I just class that as a phos problem but not saying there is no link with MF,its just I dont fully understand it.there is 2 set of symptons tho

 

[Clay52]

Point taken.When the cow is fairly bright and gets up half way I just class that as a phos problem but not saying there is no link with MF,its just I dont fully understand it.there is 2 set of symptons tho

It's more likely milk fever that just hasn't got bad enough that the cow is showing worse symptoms yet.

 

[More to life]

There was a very interesting talk at a conference I attended last year, showing injected calcium initially raised and then actually dropped blood calcium. I only inject now if they are on death's door and cannot swallow, otherwise I supplement orally.

Lots of people much cleverer than me don't believe phosphorus deficiency exists. Correct the calcium (orally) and the phosphorus will sort itself. I've measured lots of cows phosphorus level and I struggle to remember a low one. I've had more low in potassium. I suspect phosphorus is like homeopathy - give it and they get better - not that either is the actual cure.

I occasionally use phosphorus in cows, but not a lot. I wouldn't rush to in this case. I'd probably drench with a potassium containing rehydration solution, propylene glycol and perhaps give some steroid, depending on other signs and blood glucose/ketone levels.

Just to be clear is that standard 40% bottled calcium orally or a different product ?

 

[endeavour]

Can not argue precise Ca levels etc but over 35+years calving cows exclusively in pattern mid Jan to March have found that cows non responsive to Ca Iv (40%Ca borogluconate) responded when given 2 bottles CMP under skin. Going back to 1970s I remember my vet telling me I was wasting my time and money , but retracting the statement as a result of ongoing research work identifying undetected Mg and Ph requirements at calving. Have used 40% +Foston with Mag if unresponsive more latterly.

 

[Irish NZ]

Interesting comments. neighbors a major phos deficiency traced back to diet (crop and hay). Healthy cows turned into dead cows very very quickly. So pretty confident in it existence.

I used foston in the past... cows never got up. A vet over here gave the some DCP which i mixed with water and drench the cow with. Had been down a few days was up in a few hours.

 

[llamedos]

Interesting comments. neighbors a major phos deficiency traced back to diet (crop and hay). Healthy cows turned into dead cows very very quickly. So pretty confident in it existence.

Stop spraying out all your dock plants, and feeding this monoculture diet.




tin hat on.