DA's

[jimmer]

Feck

You just need super vet to tell you it's bad management now.

i was once told there is no such thing as bad luck , merely bad management

we can all smirk at that comment , untill someone repeats it at the wrong time on the wrong day

 

[Blue.]

i was once told there is no such thing as bad luck , merely bad management

we can all smirk at that comment , untill someone repeats it at the wrong time on the wrong day

"If only they could talk"

 

[bovine]

You just need super vet to tell you it's bad management now.

I don't think we know enough about RDAs to give much decent advice - if I am honest. Too sporadic - affect random cows. I've seen mini outbreaks - they've all self resolved in a week.

I'm getting better results with surgery these days - think my last 4 have all lived. The general consensus is 50:50 survive.

LDA problems are pretty fixable and predictable.

 

[jimmer]

best thing i ever did is get my own stethoscope and check cows i was suspicious of
i swear i spent too much money getting the vet out to a suspected DA for it to be , ketosis , acidosis , or just plain old guts ache

 

[bovine]

Then how are you deciding what else is wrong?

 

[jimmer]

Then how are you deciding what else is wrong?

i assume you mean if i dont hear a ''ping'' what do i do
check temp , dung consistency , smell breath , withers pinch , skin pinch , feel ears,
finadyne , multivits , fresh cow , restore , a combination of all or some of these are usually enough to put her right

 

[Clay52]

i assume you mean if i dont hear a ''ping'' what do i do
check temp , dung consistency , smell breath , withers pinch , skin pinch , feel ears,
finadyne , multivits , fresh cow , restore , a combination of all or some of these are usually enough to put her right

BHBA meter for ketosis. Watch/listen to breathing for pneumonia.

The vets didn't realize I was taking notes for every fresh cow check they did. I do it all myself now. Can't remember the last time I got the vet out for a sick fresh cow. The vets have priced themselves out of the market.

 

[bovine]

It would be a very interesting exercise having these experienced farmers examine the cows and then vets and compare.

My experience is that experienced farmers are frequently wrong in terms of diagnosis. There is something to that 5 years of university coupled with a chunk of further study that you can't quite learn by observation. Not been rude, but stating fact.

 

[jimmer]

if she was no better within a couple of days then a phone call to the vet at least

once upon a time , the vet would be called out to a cow with flecks in her milk and a hard quarter

 

[Clay52]

It would be a very interesting exercise having these experienced farmers examine the cows and then vets and compare.

My experience is that experienced farmers are frequently wrong in terms of diagnosis. There is something to that 5 years of university coupled with a chunk of further study that you can't quite learn by observation. Not been rude, but stating fact.

Yes but vets are not looking at those cows every day of their lives. Also not just observation there is plenty of information to self teach out there now available on the net from university sources. Vets are not the gate keepers of information anymore.

Not being rude but often vets are not as good as they think they are. They make a diagnosis and the bulk of the cows they never see again. They don't know if what they did worked and they actually got the diagnosis right.

 

[bovine]

Not being rude but often vets are not as good as they think they are. They make a diagnosis and the bulk of the cows they never see again. They don't know if what they did worked and they actually got the diagnosis right.

Yes they do - the good ones follow everything up. Either at the next visit or a phone call.

 

[Fergieman]

Yes they do - the good ones follow everything up. Either at the next visit or a phone call.

We quite often get a phone call to see how the patient is doing.

 

[Clay52]

Speaking of 5 years university. I had a extremely good vet tell me he could teach me more in two weeks on the job than the graduates coming out of university know. He is retired now unfortunately.

Let's face it, aside from actually doing a DA surgery a fresh cow exam is pretty simple. Don't try and pretend there is anything mystical about it.

 

[bovine]

Let's face it, aside from actually doing a DA surgery a fresh cow exam is pretty simple. Don't try and pretend there is anything mystical about it.

I'd disagree - it's one of the more subtle things we do. Pinging a cow to see if she has a DA is on the easy end of the spectrum. Does that heart sound muffled and has the cow got septic pericarditis is much more subtle. Does she have a RDA or a dilated caecum? Would you pick up the kidneys feel odd and the reason she is off milk is a kidney infection? The frequency and force of rumen contraction help with diagnosis. Rumen pH samples are invasive, but occasionally useful. Is the bladder thickened? etc etc

 

[Clay52]

I'd disagree - it's one of the more subtle things we do. Pinging a cow to see if she has a DA is on the easy end of the spectrum. Does that heart sound muffled and has the cow got septic pericarditis is much more subtle. Does she have a RDA or a dilated caecum? Would you pick up the kidneys feel odd and the reason she is off milk is a kidney infection? The frequency and force of rumen contraction help with diagnosis. Rumen pH samples are invasive, but occasionally useful. Is the bladder thickened? etc etc

See you're trying to make it sound so difficult. We haven't had a rda for 5-10 years. The stuff you are talking is in the 1% category. A farmer can easily do a basic fresh cow check on a sick cow and cut it down to 5% or so that the vet actually needs to look at. I'll get the vet out if I don't know what's going on. I had the vet out to 1 fresh cow from about 500 calvings.

Of course you are going to say a vet needs to look at every cow but with the way the industry is heading I don't want the vet out at my place. Like I said they have been pricing themselves out of the market.

 

[bovine]

Of course you are going to say a vet needs to look at every cow but with the way the industry is heading I don't want the vet out at my place. Like I said they have been pricing themselves out of the market.

I want to prevent cows getting sick, not treat sick cows. If I never see all the animals with ketosis and endometritis how will we fix it? I promise farms work better when the vet is part of the team, rather than a cost to be avoided wherever possible.

The way it's going you may be forced to have more vet involvement whether you like it or not. There is going to be a database very soon for all treatments - they will be able to audit the 100ml of Pen&Strep from the manufacturer, to the wholesaler to the vet to the farm to the cow or sheep. They will want to know where the missing 250ml is. Who knows what will come after that?

 

[Clay52]

I want to prevent cows getting sick, not treat sick cows. If I never see all the animals with ketosis and endometritis how will we fix it? I promise farms work better when the vet is part of the team, rather than a cost to be avoided wherever possible.

The way it's going you may be forced to have more vet involvement whether you like it or not. There is going to be a database very soon for all treatments - they will be able to audit the 100ml of Pen&Strep from the manufacturer, to the wholesaler to the vet to the farm to the cow or sheep. They will want to know where the missing 250ml is. Who knows what will come after that?

A farmer can't diagnose and treat ketosis??

a vet doesn't pick up cows before they are sick either unless they are so good they are able to predict the future.

 

[rc mx110]

I want to prevent cows getting sick, not treat sick cows. If I never see all the animals with ketosis and endometritis how will we fix it? I promise farms work better when the vet is part of the team, rather than a cost to be avoided wherever possible.

The way it's going you may be forced to have more vet involvement whether you like it or not. There is going to be a database very soon for all treatments - they will be able to audit the 100ml of Pen&Strep from the manufacturer, to the wholesaler to the vet to the farm to the cow or sheep. They will want to know where the missing 250ml is. Who knows what will come after that?

My farm dispersal sale!!!!!!

 

[Flossie]

I don't have a stethoscope, but I can near enough tell the vet the cow is twisted. They seem surprised, but if like @jimmer you cover all the other bases, then it's fairly obvious.
DA's are a consequence of something else-generally fresh calved, so a touch of milk fever, shortage of phos, retained cleansing, ketosis, marditis etc. You deal with that, maybe a bottle of synulox for the metritis, a bottle of Norodine to keep them going, multivits (just because), pump them up a couple of times, all the while watching the milk yield, feeling ears, watching for sunken eyes or not visiting the oopfs, till the milking you think "that fecker's twisted"
You try your best with the dry cows....plenty of roughage, minerals, Kexxtone bolus for any susceptible cows (be nice if ours were ever scanned with twins ), not too fat, not too thin. Then a nice reviving energy drink when they calve

And we still get the barstewards do it

Answers on a postcard....

 

[Blue.]

See you're trying to make it sound so difficult. We haven't had a rda for 5-10 years. The stuff you are talking is in the 1% category. A farmer can easily do a basic fresh cow check on a sick cow and cut it down to 5% or so that the vet actually needs to look at. I'll get the vet out if I don't know what's going on. I had the vet out to 1 fresh cow from about 500 calvings.

Of course you are going to say a vet needs to look at every cow but with the way the industry is heading I don't want the vet out at my place. Like I said they have been pricing themselves out of the market.

I felt like this with my old vets,best thing I ever did was sack them!

At least we can work with our new vets,I've never felt them condescending for a start.