Footpath problem

[ollie989898]

I don't understand why the HSE got involved.

You've provided signage and put up an electric fence that works. If someone decides to take the electric fence down or chooses to enter the area of the field with the cattle, that is their problem.

Threaten to prosecute anyone seen trespassing. This is only a civil offence but you can pay to do it. Also put up signs that dogs found amongst livestock will be shot.

Put signs on electric fencing indicating that it is electrified. You have done your piece. You aren't even stopping anyone from using the footpaths.

 

[Blue.]

I’m about to fence off a footpath and what I found before I start is that if the path has no width given on your land registry conveyance it’s 1.5m and 3m for a bridle way,also barb wire is ok if fixed to the opposite side of the posts (the livestock side).

 

[tessflower42]

Record what you've done by writing it down and taking photos. The guidance is quite clear that aside from cow with calves and bulls, there's usually no need to do anything extra with cattle and footpaths, but it should be risk assessed (write this down as well) (https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/ais17ew.pdf).

You should only be charged money for their time if you've materially broken the law. If that is likely, then think hard before writing an email or phonecall, because that may end up being charged as well. Ditto with appeals.

There may be a problem if the electric fences being stolen or damaged is foreseeable and the cattle do need to be fenced off from the public. Because you may be seen as not taking enough steps to deal with that foreseeable problem. Easiest solution to that I think would be regular checks (again - write them down or easier still, take a quick photo) on the fences as part of your daily stock check.

You certainly won't go to prison without a trial, I think you may have misunderstood what they were trying to say.

HSE group agriculture in with lots of other industries (https://www.hse.gov.uk/fod/about.htm) so you might have got someone who isn't very familiar with agriculture.

this is what we have said, they are not interested in photo's and we have a fair few of them, we put signs up keep dog on a lead or in close control, no bulls or steers, no dangerous breeds. I have lots of photos and paperwork. it's about 3 inches thick now. We haven't broken any law. Why would it be our fault, when a person decided not to go through the kissing gate and footpath which is marked with a yellow arrow. walk across a private field, through a gate, which comes out by the feeder ( furthest point away from footpath) Cows come running. but didn't touch him or his dog. ( he felt threatened!)
We check every day, sometime twice and if they have calves every few hours. Its just a pity there are footpaths everywhere here. We have had the first part of the footpath to be redirected, ( because it goes straight across the field) but this started in March of this year.

 

[tessflower42]

I don't understand why the HSE got involved.

You've provided signage and put up an electric fence that works. If someone decides to take the electric fence down or chooses to enter the area of the field with the cattle, that is their problem.

Threaten to prosecute anyone seen trespassing. This is only a civil offence but you can pay to do it. Also put up signs that dogs found amongst livestock will be shot.

Put signs on electric fencing indicating that it is electrified. You have done your piece. You aren't even stopping anyone from using the footpaths.

we have done all this. When I asked who the person was who said he felt threatened and said where he walked. I said but that private and no rights to be there. I want their name to fine them. He wouldn't give me the details.

 

[ollie989898]

this is what we have said, they are not interested in photo's and we have a fair few of them, we put signs up keep dog on a lead or in close control, no bulls or steers, no dangerous breeds. I have lots of photos and paperwork. it's about 3 inches thick now. We haven't broken any law. Why would it be our fault, when a person decided not to go through the kissing gate and footpath which is marked with a yellow arrow. walk across a private field, through a gate, which comes out by the feeder ( furthest point away from footpath) Cows come running. but didn't touch him or his dog. ( he felt threatened!)
We check every day, sometime twice and if they have calves every few hours. Its just a pity there are footpaths everywhere here. We have had the first part of the footpath to be redirected, ( because it goes straight across the field) but this started in March of this year.

You've done all you can. You have liability insurance for keeping stock if the worst happens- stock breakout and ruin a garden or a car runs into them. It is that simple. You can't fence people out as they will find a way if they want in. Your liability is to fence stock in, you've gone as far as the law permits.

 

[ollie989898]

we have done all this. When I asked who the person was who said he felt threatened and said where he walked. I said but that private and no rights to be there. I want their name to fine them. He wouldn't give me the details.

Someone felt threatened- so what?

You've done nothing illegal. Your stock are fenced in. You haven't tried to block or close a footpath or other right of way. You have insurance for damage caused by stock.

 

[tessflower42]

I’m about to fence off a footpath and what I found before I start is that if the path has no width given on your land registry conveyance it’s 1.5m and 3m for a bridle way,also barb wire is ok if fixed to the opposite side of the posts (the livestock side).

Our highways said no barbed wire, so that's interesting..

 

[tessflower42]

You've done all you can. You have liability insurance for keeping stock if the worst happens- stock breakout and ruin a garden or a car runs into them. It is that simple. You can't fence people out as they will find a way if they want in. Your liability is to fence stock in, you've gone as far as the law permits.

We do have the insurance for all this.. the insurance wouldnt pay out for a solicitor for us on these cases is because it is a fee for intervention, so insurances don't cover that.

 

[Mc115reed]

you are not allowed barbed wire. that would be great because, it would keep them off climbing the fence. They moaned here about barbed wire being on a gate. I said the only gate with barbed wire on it, is in a field with no footpath!,

You are allowed barbed wire, it has too be on the reverse side of the post though not on the inside of it… and it’s also allowed on the gate aslong as the gate is more than 1.2metres from the public highway, if it’s on the public highway then your not allowed… going there later today hopefully I’ll take some pictures but highways England have been out because of complaints and said it’s perfectly fine

 

[ollie989898]

We do have the insurance for all this.. the insurance wouldnt pay out for a solicitor for us on these cases is because it is a fee for intervention, so insurances don't cover that.

No, you have insurance that covers the loss anyone might suffer from cattle. If your cows get out and trample a garden or beat up someone's car, you're insured unless you were totally negligent and allowed them out.

 

[Ffermer Bach]

You are allowed barbed wire, it has too be on the reverse side of the post though not on the inside of it… and it’s also allowed on the gate aslong as the gate is more than 1.2metres from the public highway, if it’s on the public highway then your not allowed… going there later today hopefully I’ll take some pictures but highways England have been out because of complaints and said it’s perfectly fine

in my old job I used to drive all over West Wales, and I often noticed stock fencing next to A roads, often had the pig netting on the road side of the post, where as the top barbed was on the field side of the posts. I always thought this was because of the barbed next to the highway rule.

If I was in your position, I would be inclined to fence with pig netting and barbed next to the footpath (and 1.5m wide) with the pig netting/barbed on the "field" side of the posts, then I would run a strand of plain wire on the "path" side of the posts.

 

[tessflower42]

in my old job I used to drive all over West Wales, and I often noticed stock fencing next to A roads, often had the pig netting on the road side of the post, where as the top barbed was on the field side of the posts. I always thought this was because of the barbed next to the highway rule.

If I was in your position, I would be inclined to fence with pig netting and barbed next to the footpath (and 1.5m wide) with the pig netting/barbed on the "field" side of the posts, then I would run a strand of plain wire on the "path" side of the posts.

Thank you. good idea

 

[dudders]

'Trespassers will be prosecuted' is a classic piece of nonsense, like 'Dogs must be kept on leads'. It's just not true, even if it is a deterrent. Trespassers, per se, will NOT be prosecuted. They can be sued, but it's highly unlikely, being very expensive and only resulting in a payout if financial loss can be proved. About the only useful result MIGHT be to get an injunction on someone to stop them doing it. But that's only one person...

Aggravated trespass is another matter - it's a criminal offence, involving the offender doing something to harm someone else's property, their rights or their lawful activity. In your case, you could ask the police to caution your regular guy, because he and his loose dogs, in his repeated trespassing, have already caused one incident and are likely to cause another. Right now the police are hyper-sensitive about guns, so only make the threat of shooting a dog if you don't have a gun for them to confiscate.

Your notices sound to me like they're going to make things worse, set more people against you. Do you need that? Farmers are vulnerable people, with fences, hay stores, livestock, machinery, etc. Best keep your head down and make as few enemies as you can - if you're smart, you'll make as many friends as you can. In your situation, you need them. Be friendly to people who are keeping to the path, got their dogs under control, chat to them, whatever it takes.

You say the last HSE man has left. I'd track him down, through social media or any way I could, see if I could get some inside info from him. If you think he wasn't happy about things, he could be very useful indeed. All strength to your elbow.

HSE are quite wrong to say you will be imprisoned 'if something happens'. As others have said, this would be totally out of order.

I'd defo put up a video camera to catch people in the act. It shows what they're doing, day and night, and also identifies them. I'm happy to lend you mine if you want to try that.

 

[Mc115reed]

'Trespassers will be prosecuted' is a classic piece of nonsense, like 'Dogs must be kept on leads'. It's just not true, even if it is a deterrent. Trespassers, per se, will NOT be prosecuted. They can be sued, but it's highly unlikely, being very expensive and only resulting in a payout if financial loss can be proved. About the only useful result MIGHT be to get an injunction on someone to stop them doing it. But that's only one person...

Aggravated trespass is another matter - it's a criminal offence, involving the offender doing something to harm someone else's property, their rights or their lawful activity. In your case, you could ask the police to caution your regular guy, because he and his loose dogs, in his repeated trespassing, have already caused one incident and are likely to cause another. Right now the police are hyper-sensitive about guns, so only make the threat of shooting a dog if you don't have a gun for them to confiscate.

Your notices sound to me like they're going to make things worse, set more people against you. Do you need that? Farmers are vulnerable people, with fences, hay stores, livestock, machinery, etc. Best keep your head down and make as few enemies as you can - if you're smart, you'll make as many friends as you can. In your situation, you need them. Be friendly to people who are keeping to the path, got their dogs under control, chat to them, whatever it takes.

You say the last HSE man has left. I'd track him down, through social media or any way I could, see if I could get some inside info from him. If you think he wasn't happy about things, he could be very useful indeed. All strength to your elbow.

HSE are quite wrong to say you will be imprisoned 'if something happens'. As others have said, this would be totally out of order.

I'd defo put up a video camera to catch people in the act. It shows what they're doing, day and night, and also identifies them. I'm happy to lend you mine if you want to try that.

Place I used too graze at had a problem with people cutting the same fence over and over again … we put up one of those wildlife cameras and did full post and rail with barb wire wrapped around the rails (it wasn’t even close too a footpath it was other end of the field too it) and a fully grown man mid 50s came along the next day with a full tool bag and took it all down … Facebook loved it, his wife was a parish councillor too… really went down well 200 odd comments the post got…

 

[tessflower42]

'Trespassers will be prosecuted' is a classic piece of nonsense, like 'Dogs must be kept on leads'. It's just not true, even if it is a deterrent. Trespassers, per se, will NOT be prosecuted. They can be sued, but it's highly unlikely, being very expensive and only resulting in a payout if financial loss can be proved. About the only useful result MIGHT be to get an injunction on someone to stop them doing it. But that's only one person...

Aggravated trespass is another matter - it's a criminal offence, involving the offender doing something to harm someone else's property, their rights or their lawful activity. In your case, you could ask the police to caution your regular guy, because he and his loose dogs, in his repeated trespassing, have already caused one incident and are likely to cause another. Right now the police are hyper-sensitive about guns, so only make the threat of shooting a dog if you don't have a gun for them to confiscate.

Your notices sound to me like they're going to make things worse, set more people against you. Do you need that? Farmers are vulnerable people, with fences, hay stores, livestock, machinery, etc. Best keep your head down and make as few enemies as you can - if you're smart, you'll make as many friends as you can. In your situation, you need them. Be friendly to people who are keeping to the path, got their dogs under control, chat to them, whatever it takes.

You say the last HSE man has left. I'd track him down, through social media or any way I could, see if I could get some inside info from him. If you think he wasn't happy about things, he could be very useful indeed. All strength to your elbow.

HSE are quite wrong to say you will be imprisoned 'if something happens'. As others have said, this would be totally out of order.

I'd defo put up a video camera to catch people in the act. It shows what they're doing, day and night, and also identifies them. I'm happy to lend you mine if you want to try that.

Hi,
i am quite a quite person normally but this has upset me so much. I walk around the fields with my dogs explain to people why they have to stay to footpath and the most say they didn't realise it was private and they can only walk the footpath. They don't realise the harm in dog poo. You get 2 out of 10 that would give you a mouthful back.

If i put a camera up i would have to say there are cameras? I have 4 I could put up. They are camouflage ones and take great picture of the wildlife. but a red light appears, so at night yo would see it.

I have a retired gentleman who has offered to walk the fields and take photos. I am really disappointed in our council and parish council. These problems just wont go away, other farmers surrounding us are having the same problem. Maybe its because we have been too soft before this. We let them go sledging on the banks everything..

The first h and s inspector would be the one to get hold of. He hated cows and i even got him to stroke them and my dogs were kissing the cows and calfs.

 

[TheTallGuy]

Our highways said no barbed wire, so that's interesting..

It's quite simple - any time someone official says that you can't do something (or you must do something) you simply ask them to provide references to the laws, or cases decided in court, that back up what they are saying - if they cannot then they are only giving a personal opinion.

Any official saying "you will go to prison" is just trying to scare you as aside from some very specific situations that don't apply here it is for the courts to convict & the presiding judge to pass sentence neither part is a foregone conclusion.

 

[tepapa]

Has anyone responded to the ELMS consultation to fund fencing public footpaths, surely that's a public benefit. @Janet Hughes Defra ?

 

[tessflower42]

Has anyone responded to the ELMS consultation to fund fencing public footpaths, surely that's a public benefit. @Janet Hughes Defra ?

I am sure there would be something out there.

My council are a waste of time, but I could ask them. they now exactly what myself and my family are going through. Most of the time I am sure it's the green eye monster!!

I said to the highways I was concerned that if we fenced of the footpaths, because it gets very wet and muddy, people will not stay behind the fence. They said if we put it in, at a good standard, then they can maintain it. or something like that.

In a ideal world yep, fence it off, keep trespassers out, keep our animals safe. keep us calm not having to deal with numpties!

But weather, conditions of ground, huge cost, it just doesn't work.

 

[Ffermer Bach]

I am sure there would be something out there.

My council are a waste of time, but I could ask them. they now exactly what myself and my family are going through. Most of the time I am sure it's the green eye monster!!

I said to the highways I was concerned that if we fenced of the footpaths, because it gets very wet and muddy, people will not stay behind the fence. They said if we put it in, at a good standard, then they can maintain it. or something like that.

In a ideal world yep, fence it off, keep trespassers out, keep our animals safe. keep us calm not having to deal with numpties!

But weather, conditions of ground, huge cost, it just doesn't work.

Why are you worrying about the quality of the footpath? It is not your responsibility, if it gets wet or muddy. There is a right to pass (on the path), nothing more. If the surface is difficult going, then that is the councils responsibility to sort it out. On older "B" roads the adjacent farmers own the road, I don't think you find them resurfacing the highway when it gets potholed!!!

Fence it (with barbed the other side of the posts), then if you find someone on your side of the fence, ask them to leave, maybe buy a gopro to record the interactions.

If the fence is cut, install a trail cam and inform the Police and report criminal damage.

 

[Jonp]

If the fence is cut, install a trail cam and inform the Police and report criminal damage.

When I took on this farm three years ago my top field was badly fenced so I renewed it. Fella with two sons and a dog kept cutting the fence, in two places, so he could take a short cut across my field to wherever. Blocked up his little path with logs, branches and tree trunks. He kept cutting the fence and pulled everything out onto the field. This happened about half a dozen times. Bought a nice trail camera and nailed it to a tree looking at fence.
Then nailed blown up stills from the video to the fence post showing him cutting fence and dragging out logs.
Also nailed note to fence saying "I know who you are now and so do the police"
Found pictures and note ripped into pieces and stamped into the mud.
He hasn't been back.