General Election

[Old McDonald]

But it was not a "one off" streaming. My younger brother was given an opportunity through another examination at the ages of 12 and 13. He failed both. He went on to take GCE 'O' levels and obtained a couple. He was just short of the ability to be in a grammar school. He became self-employed (landscape gardening and block paving) at a young age and left his son a very profitable and expanding business. He put his practical ability to use. His life chances were most certainly not damaged by being excluded from a grammar school.

I cannot gree with your remark about freedom of movement between subjects. I was allowed to choose my subjects (within reason - English language and maths being compulsory) and I took these two, Eng Lit, French, history, biology and woodwork. I failed the last two. In those days that was about the limit to attempt, although the real academics could take a couple more.

 

[Osca]

Also, children don't just underachieve at school because they are less academic - those who would fail the eleven-plus would also include the kids who are disillusioned and rebellious, or lazy, or struggling with mental or physical diffficulties.

It turns into a two-tier system; the privileged - not so much in terms of money (though sorry, Old Mac; money does help) but in the ability to fit in to the world of school and the gift of being able to cope with book-learning - and the rest. And the children who most need quality education if they are to cope well in our modern world, are the ones least likely to have resources spent on them - plus those with some ability have to try to cope in an environment made less helpful by the disruptive activities of those who are truly fed-up with school.

 

[Osca]

Good for your brother; but there was no second attempt that I know of for those in my year.

 

[Old McDonald]

Obviously you were writing #662 as I was writing #661 so some of your additional points have been answered. It made no diference whatsoever how wealthy a parent was. It was not possible to buy a place. Of course the ability to fit into school life and to cope with book-learning was the driving factor in achieving a grammar school place. That is what life is all about. Anyoe who cannot do that has no hope of obtaining a decent University degree or obtaining a well-paid position where these same attributes are required. That is my whole point. Those who have the ability should not be held back by those who do not.

You are pursuing the usual anti grammar school line that children from a wealthier background have always been the beneficiaries of a grammar school education. I have given you as much information as I can remember of my own class which clearly shows that money had absolutely nothing to do with who obtained a place.

My wife went to the girls' equivalent school - much more difficult to get into that. We boys had a double form entry, say about 65 to 70 and the girls from the same catchment area had 30/32. Her class was similarly made up of daughters of generally working class people. I knew the one s older than her (me being 5 years older) and I can say the same applied, working class people, many of them pitmen, farmworkers or foundry workers.

 

[Ashtree]

Your usual unfounded balderdash.

It must really eat into you having so much hatred for the UK. I know you have previously denied that this is so, but it shows in almost every post you make.

So you don't think she is running a presidential style campaign then! Fine.
On the other hand my observation is that she is doing exact that.
Not one single letter, syllable, dot or hint in my post shows even a scintilla of hatred to any person, place or thing.
My comments on the republic thing were mere toung in cheek.
You really need to relax a little! The fact that another human might have polar opposite opinions to you, might just not be a bad thing.

 

[Osca]

Perhaps we should have this grammar school discussion some time on a different thread; it is almost as massive and divisive as global warming...


not now, though! Bed now and a miserable day in the office tomorrow...

 

[Old McDonald]

Good for your brother; but there was no second attempt that I know of for those in my year.

Surely there was. The 12+ and 13+ still exist. I cannot say for sure that they apply to all schools, but they do still exist. Additonally grammar schools took some students from non grammar schools after they had obtained some O levels if they wanted to go on to further education. I understand this still hapens now.

 

[arbel]

Does anyone know if any of the manifestos say anything about rural broadband services?

@Gator might like to know...

But you guys have never had an opportunity to elect a president before. Now your time has come. President May will be your first. Did you think that when you voted for Brexit you were voting also for a republic?

@Ashree I see that you are still spouting rubbish. But nice to see you back again. As for Brexit, so far so good.

 

[Ashtree]

@Ashree I see that you are still spouting rubbish. But nice to see you back again. As for Brexit, so far so good.

Thank you. As for rural broadband services ... don't all manifestos promise super fast next generation broadband. Isn't that section deriguer !!!
I still think May would make a great president. She had that kind of style and aura about her.
Don't tell the great man in Portugal I mentioned that again. Wouldn't want to make him throw up his fortified port and ruin his morning suit.

 

[Courier]

48% of us did not vote for brexit.

Not strictly true -

46,501,241 folk were registered to vote and 17,410,742 voted for Brexit so 29,090,499 did not vote for Brexit whilst 16,141,241 actively voted against.

Ho Hum .....the fan is still freewheeling awaiting it's fate.....

 

[arbel]

Thank you. As for rural broadband services ... don't all manifestos promise super fast next generation broadband. Isn't that section deriguer !!!
I still think May would make a great president. She had that kind of style and aura about her.
Don't tell the great man in Portugal I mentioned that again. Wouldn't want to make him throw up his fortified port and ruin his morning suit.

You may be right about May being Presidential material. However, that is not on the cards.
As to broadband services, we have been promised year in year out that we would be onto fibre. But as BT is a privatised company, HM Government has limited powers to push them. This might change however.
As a matter of interest, my company does a lot with the mobile providers in terms of data transmission. These are the people who need a rocket up their backsides.
Mobile connections in rural West Wales have been pathetic up to now. It's no joke hanging out of an upstairs window in the rain trying to get a signal.
It seems that we will be retaining 2G (GPRS) services, but 3G is likely to be dumped and all efforts put into 4G.
The mobile service is actually improving over the last few weeks.
So, back to Brexit and our General Election. What's your take on the 'leaked" Labour Party manifesto?

 

[Henarar]

Not strictly true -

46,501,241 folk were registered to vote and 17,410,742 voted for Brexit so 29,090,499 did not vote for Brexit whilst 16,141,241 actively voted against.

Ho Hum .....the fan is still freewheeling awaiting it's fate.....

so 30,360,000 didn't vote to remain in the EU
Interesting that's about two thirds of those that could vote that were not bothered about staying in the club

 

[Ashtree]

You may be right about May being Presidential material. However, that is not on the cards.
As to broadband services, we have been promised year in year out that we would be onto fibre. But as BT is a privatised company, HM Government has limited powers to push them. This might change however.
As a matter of interest, my company does a lot with the mobile providers in terms of data transmission. These are the people who need a rocket up their backsides.
Mobile connections in rural West Wales have been pathetic up to now. It's no joke hanging out of an upstairs window in the rain trying to get a signal.
It seems that we will be retaining 2G (GPRS) services, but 3G is likely to be dumped and all efforts put into 4G.
The mobile service is actually improving over the last few weeks.
So, back to Brexit and our General Election. What's your take on the 'leaked" Labour Party manifesto?

Hardly matters whats in the Labour manifesto, as they wont get to implement it.
Even if elected, .................. it couldn't happen, could it? Then that was said about Brexit and Trump and look what happened there.

Interesting though that even the Tories under May, are promoting more and more state intervention.
She believes the "state should step up"!

Getting back to Corbyn's high tax inclinations ................. such taxes can work it seems https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/...x-plan-delivers-an-economic-miracle-in-sweden

 

[JP1]

I went to a grammar school as did many thousands of other pitmen's sons. In my class of about 35 there were two on free school meals (because their widowed mother's were deemed not to be able to afford to pay); at least two more without a father; several whose father was in a lowly paid job; three whose father was a teacher; one with his own business - a fish and chip shop, and one whose father was a retired pit electrician. The rest I do not know, or cannot remember. We were all there because we had passed an examination at the age of 10-11, not because we were from a privileged background.

I simply cannot understand the objection to grammar schools. Neither of my brothers went there, and it would have been wrong, because they were both more practically minded and suited to practical jobs. I was not - words and numbers being my best way to earn a crust until I acquired enough to nuy my way into farming.

Forcing everybody into the same school irrespective of academic ability is not fair on the kids, and not fair on the teachers. It is as daft as Bliar's notion of 50% going to University. What is the point? There are not enough suitable jobs if half the people have a degree.

A very well reasoned posting.

My Father went to a grammar (and came from "very humble stock"). He excelled academically.

I went to my local comprehensive schools.

My two Daughters were lucky enough to school within the Warwickshire school system; one went to a single sex grammar school, the younger to a Catholic sponsored Sports Community College. Horses for courses.

I would suggest given equal per capita funding at all schools, that both grammar and non-grammar school pupils benefit.

Firstly it should take less teaching energy / resource to achieve a certain academic outcome from those that go to a selective school. In the non-selective school pupils will be able to receive teaching appropriate to their needs and their learning development. Some may also remain more interested in schooling if there are more practical and / or vocational emphasis.

Secondly, I still remain convinced that much latent educational attainment is never achieved due to peer pressure on the brightest / eccentric / individualistic.

At school level I do not see a grammar school taking anything from a comprehensive school; given equal funding. What I can see needing careful management and handling are school league tables and how employers and future parents rate / compare schools. A misinterpretation would be unfair to all.

Labour and the education establishment "blob" seem hell bent on stereotyping and wanting to pull anything down to the lowest common denominator.

Why not celebrate achievement and academic prowess. I could never get to Oxbridge but I do not resent them or their like. They are no better than me as an individual citizen and get buried in the same size box. If they play to their strengths (as do I) , then everyone wins.

 

[JP1]

Obviously you were writing #662 as I was writing #661 so some of your additional points have been answered. It made no diference whatsoever how wealthy a parent was. It was not possible to buy a place. Of course the ability to fit into school life and to cope with book-learning was the driving factor in achieving a grammar school place. That is what life is all about. Anyoe who cannot do that has no hope of obtaining a decent University degree or obtaining a well-paid position where these same attributes are required. That is my whole point. Those who have the ability should not be held back by those who do not.

You are pursuing the usual anti grammar school line that children from a wealthier background have always been the beneficiaries of a grammar school education. I have given you as much information as I can remember of my own class which clearly shows that money had absolutely nothing to do with who obtained a place.

My wife went to the girls' equivalent school - much more difficult to get into that. We boys had a double form entry, say about 65 to 70 and the girls from the same catchment area had 30/32. Her class was similarly made up of daughters of generally working class people. I knew the one s older than her (me being 5 years older) and I can say the same applied, working class people, many of them pitmen, farmworkers or foundry workers.

Again, a very well reasoned response.

We are not comparing "buying" privilege via a public school (and I am pro choice as not every private school is elitist - see Brymore as an example where parents choose an agriculture rich syllabus).

In fact I would venture to suggest grammar schools aid social mobility (if that is how you wish to describe it) from under-privileged backgrounds.

 

[Old McDonald]

Labour and the education establishment "blob" seem hell bent on stereotyping and wanting to pull anything down to the lowest common denominator.

In fact I would venture to suggest grammar schools aid social mobility (if that is how you wish to describe it) from under-privileged backgrounds.

Just two snippets from your posts, but extremely important ones, and not off-topic since they relate to the parties' attitudes to education in the forthcoming election.

I cannot understand the Labour Party objecting to grammar schools when I knew so many who went to school around the same time as me and came from families who would never ever vote anything other than Labour, and that includes my own parents, yet they achieved so much more because they were streamed to achieve their academic potential.

I was not one of the top few nor one of the bottom few, and I am certain I was appointed to my first job when I was still at school and pre O -levels (Office Junior in the Town Clerk's Dept) primarily on the basis of the school I was attending. It can be argued that is "privilege". Perhaps so, but it was a means of the interviewers - full Council meeting, Mayor and Town Clerk in their robes, assessing my then abilities and potential without knowing anything about me. I guess that somebody also made a phone call to the school.

Some of those I knew obtained easy entry and/or scholarships to Cambridge and Oxford. Sid Waddell (the late darts commentator) was one of them. His family (related through my sister-in-law) would never vote anything other than Labour. Probably still do.

 

[TheRanger]

Scotland has a two tier education system already.

The top 10 state schools in the country are also the top ten most expensive areas to live, as over the last 20 years well off parents have moved into the areas with good schools, subsequently those schools have got better. Most of the top ten state schools in Scotland are basically grammar schools with the entry requirements being your postcode, so those from poorer backgrounds have no chance of attending.

 

[arbel]

The Strange Death of Europe by Douglas Murray

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/magazine...ge-death-of-europeby-douglas-murray-z20l3qht0

This is well worth reading. In a nutshell, this is why I voted for Brexit.

It's not a short article, but the key points as to why the EU is doomed to failure are set out in Rod Liddel's review of this fascinating book.

 

[holywell farmer]

The Strange Death of Europe by Douglas Murray

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/magazine...ge-death-of-europeby-douglas-murray-z20l3qht0

This is well worth reading. In a nutshell, this is why I voted for Brexit.

It's not a short article, but the key points as to why the EU is doomed to failure are set out in Rod Liddel's review of this fascinating book.

With labour I just don't trust Corbyn or his party not 1 bit, to deliver on Brexit or make the economy better

 

[kfpben]

I recently went to Romania for a long weekend (stag do!) It was an incredible place but the amount of EU money that has been spent on white elephants was astonishing. The airport was brand new, all shops shut and virtually empty. An adventure park where we were the only customers on a Saturday afternoon. The large new theatre with only one performance a week. New schools, court houses, libraries all proudly displaying the EU flag.

Yet the city felt very empty, we thought it must be because a large chunk of the working age population has left to work in western Europe.

Surely the German money will run out soon? I left Romania thinking that Brexit was perhaps the wisest thing we have done as a country for many years.