Help with steel frame footings, grain store.

jorgenbg

Member
Location
Oslo, Norway
Hello

In these times its hard to get any professionals to help quickly. Im building a new grain store with silos. The geo guy said that I could not do any weight difference on the ground, hench I had to dig out the same amount of dirt as the weight of the building incl. grain.

So, Im lowering the silos 2m down in the ground. Im in the process of pouring the floor. The walls are to be poured using rented Hunnebeck forms.

My plan was to make the walls 20cm thick with 8mm steel mesh outside, and 12mm steel at 20cm distance inside, vertical and horisontal.

My problem is the footings of the steel frame. This is a small building. About 14m wide and 20m long. Wall height of the beams are 6,5m and 45 degree roof angle.


Some say I need to put the beams all the way down on the floor. My farming uncle says just put them on the wall. Its hardly any weight anyway.

I guess the best solution would be to make column forms on the outside of the wall and reinforce steel connected to the wall. Just a lot of work.

Anyone have any idea on how todo this? Lots of people on here with good logic :)

I have made a sketchup drawing to illustrate.


Thanks in advance.

Jørgen


Bueavstand.png
 

OutdoorTim

Member
Location
Wiltshire
If you are intending to push against the wall then a concrete kicker is required .The walls and a metre kicker need pouring at same time .L shaped steel bars need incorporations into the wall formation and needs to be 300 mm thick .The floor then needs to be poured over this kicker to height so you need to allow x amount in the ground to restrain head clearance .If you are pouring the floor in one hit be mindfull of ground water that will lift any amount of concrete if water is allowed to build up .
Easier said than done ,pity you arnt in uk mate
 

Lincsman

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire
Many industrial stores have the legs bolted to the top of 20' high walls, the walls are very thick and have extra concrete where the legs bolt though, but they have spans of 200'
 

Lincsman

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire
If you are intending to push against the wall then a concrete kicker is required .The walls and a metre kicker need pouring at same time .L shaped steel bars need incorporations into the wall formation and needs to be 300 mm thick .The floor then needs to be poured over this kicker to height so you need to allow x amount in the ground to restrain head clearance .If you are pouring the floor in one hit be mindfull of ground water that will lift any amount of concrete if water is allowed to build up .
Easier said than done ,pity you arnt in uk mate
I have recently poured floor (2 years ago) in and old shed that has lifted, but not cracked, 5mm can water do that?, the shed has been there with an earth floor for 40 years.
 

OutdoorTim

Member
Location
Wiltshire
I have recently poured floor (2 years ago) in and old shed that has lifted, but not cracked, 5mm can water do that?, the shed has been there with an earth floor for 40 years.
Only two natural things that will lift concrete .One is water the other is tree roots .
If you suspect ground water and are able ,dig a trench around the outside and fill with 20 mm gravel ,lined with a breathable membrane .Take a pipe from the bottem of this trench to an outlet ie pond or ditch system .
In damp areas of high water table ,some form of drainage should be put in prior to pouring concrete that allows any collecting water to escape the foundations .
Last year we built a slurry store that was in the ground by 3m .
Before we poured the concrete the founds filled up with ground water needing a pump running continuous to cope with the influx of water .Foundations were stoned up and rienforcing in place that had to come out to allow us to bid a system of drains to an outside sump .Sorted and poured and there is now a permanent float pump installed to a ditch whenever ground water reaches a level
This will be diverted to a holding tank should we ever see a drought again’t .
Tree roots require drastic action at the source and a matter for local bylaws
 

jorgenbg

Member
Location
Oslo, Norway
Only two natural things that will lift concrete .One is water the other is tree roots .
If you suspect ground water and are able ,dig a trench around the outside and fill with 20 mm gravel ,lined with a breathable membrane .Take a pipe from the bottem of this trench to an outlet ie pond or ditch system .
In damp areas of high water table ,some form of drainage should be put in prior to pouring concrete that allows any collecting water to escape the foundations .
Last year we built a slurry store that was in the ground by 3m .
Before we poured the concrete the founds filled up with ground water needing a pump running continuous to cope with the influx of water .Foundations were stoned up and rienforcing in place that had to come out to allow us to bid a system of drains to an outside sump .Sorted and poured and there is now a permanent float pump installed to a ditch whenever ground water reaches a level
This will be diverted to a holding tank should we ever see a drought again’t .
Tree roots require drastic action at the source and a matter for local bylaws
My dump pit holds 27 cubic meters and is 3,4m down in the ground. Had to dig out almost 4m and put gravel and drains. Around drains I use 4/8mm to cover, and more coarse stone to support floor and walls. To far to dig a natuarlig flow, so also installed a pump. For ease of access I bougt concrete rings 1m wide with ladder. I might try to make some redundant system with two pumps in case something happens.
 

jorgenbg

Member
Location
Oslo, Norway
Hi

This project is slowly going forward. On my own at the moment. Started to put in styrofoam on the silo floor today.

I decieded to pour the walls first and add rebar connection to the kicker or what you call it. Then pour them later. That will be much easier I think.

So, my question. Would you put the steel frame on just the kicker or would you do like 10cm on the wall and the reset on the kicker? I have space to todo both, but I would prefer to have that extra 20cm width inside.

Thanks in advance.

In this picture you have the dump pit, room for the elevator and a small culvert to the conveyor to empty bins. I left the inside forms until silo floor is poured.



Bilde 16.04.2020, 14 41 30.jpg
 

MrA.G.

Member
Location
Northern Ireland
Hi

This project is slowly going forward. On my own at the moment. Started to put in styrofoam on the silo floor today.

I decieded to pour the walls first and add rebar connection to the kicker or what you call it. Then pour them later. That will be much easier I think.

So, my question. Would you put the steel frame on just the kicker or would you do like 10cm on the wall and the reset on the kicker? I have space to todo both, but I would prefer to have that extra 20cm width inside.

Thanks in advance.

In this picture you have the dump pit, room for the elevator and a small culvert to the conveyor to empty bins. I left the inside forms until silo floor is poured.



View attachment 871078
I’m only seeing this thread now. In response to your first question at the start of this thread, If I were designing it we would design for the steel rising off the top of the wall. Also, it seems strange that your geotechnical advice suggested the ground was not capable of carrying additional load. It looks good in this picture.
Your English is good but I don’t quite understand the latest question, could you draw a quick sketch and we will try to help?
 

jorgenbg

Member
Location
Oslo, Norway
I’m only seeing this thread now. In response to your first question at the start of this thread, If I were designing it we would design for the steel rising off the top of the wall. Also, it seems strange that your geotechnical advice suggested the ground was not capable of carrying additional load. It looks good in this picture.
Your English is good but I don’t quite understand the latest question, could you draw a quick sketch and we will try to help?
Hi

Thanks for your reply.

Been very busy lately. The government did drill out ground samples in the lat 80s or early 90s. Its a bad area when it comes to quick clay. And one greedy farmer took delivery of 65k cubic meters of dirt 2-3 years ago, to make his field bigger. Big mud slide of quick clay and 3 lituanian workers died. After that episode everything is very difficult.


I ordered the steel frame from Poland to save money. Its hard to change anything with them and drawings take time to get. I made the decision to put the steel frame 10cm onto the concrete wall and I have to pour an additional column on the outside to support the beam. Its an I-beam 450. This will be connected to the wall.

Dont really know how Im going to bolt the beam to the concrete. The anchors the polish proposed are 750mm long. That will not fit my design. Im stressed and work too much, and take the planning side of this a bit too easy I guess.

2020-04-29 21.04.52.jpg




Fundation.png



Also flipped the dry pit today as its best to screw it together upside down. A bit nervous but it went ok.

2020-04-29 13.33.21.jpg


2020-04-29 21.04.14.jpg
 

MrA.G.

Member
Location
Northern Ireland
Interesting about the quick clay, it is not something I know anything about. I must say your workmanship is impressive for being a farmer.

in regard the beam fixing you have a few options. If the beam is fixing into the wall to create a shear only connection and you have not yet poured the wall then you could use something like a halfen connection https://www.halfen.com/uk/789/product-ranges/construction/reinforcement-systems/huc-universal-connection/introduction/
If you are going to form a concrete column to the underside of the beam then the concrete will take most of the load so 2 or so holding down bolts cast into the column and passing through the bottom flange should be ok.
 

jorgenbg

Member
Location
Oslo, Norway
Regarding the quick clay. Its most likely 10-15m down in the ground. By building this way I avoid very expensive geo-work with drilling test holes all over and lab test the ground etc.

Thanks for the kind words. Im not affraid todo things I havent done before. My theory is that most people are not rocket scientist and when it comes down to it. Its mostly just work. It has its limitations of course.

This Halfen company have an office in Norway. I will give them a call. Great stuff.

Most likely I have to drill into the wall, as the pr. day hire rate of the forms are quite high. When its ready to pour, it will be poured. Most of the beam will be on the column anyway and that I can do properly.

Im not worried about weight. Its the wind load.

Jørgen
 

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