Excellent! I have a couple.. Will get back to you!
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How Tricky Is It To Put A Shed Up Yourself?
- Thread starter franklin
- Start date
What thickness of block work wAll to retain 1m of soil , wall will form slurry pit on other side
Without being overly technical it depends on a number of factors such as soil type, how the wall sits on the supports, any piers, is there a surcharge loading potential, any masonry reinforcement etc. While I would love to help it is unwise for me to give specific detailed design advise without establishing all the facts. I believe the forum rules discourage commercial activity on the forums so please accept my appology for not giving you specific design advice in this instance.
What thickness of wall is required to withstand the impact of a Leyland 272 synchro, travelling at 15 MPH, after the brakes have failed ?
What thickness of wall is required to withstand the impact of a Leyland 272 synchro, travelling at 15 MPH, after the brakes have failed ?
Please do not take offense as none is intended but in the first instance it may be more cost effective to review your maintenace regime.
Thanks
Will build it Same as other three sheds the first of which was build about 35 years ago
Forever Fendt
Member
- Location
- Derbyshire
No maintenance issue with leyland brakes i don't think they worked from new maybe thats where the expression rolling of the production line came from
Forever Fendt
Member
- Location
- Derbyshire
could your user name do with updating to gusbs 1090 as 5502 your still on the old codes
Parts of the 5502 series have been updated to tie in with the Eurocodes which are linked, in places to 1090, where possible. In particular BS 5502 part 22 in 2013. Have a look at this web page from the Farmers weekly. Hope this helps.
http://www.fwi.co.uk/business/new-farm-buildings-must-meet-extreme-weather-regs.htm
welcome aboard gusbs.
you sound like a lad who ate a rule book but i cant say your not right, you are in everything you say, but you have to be too.
ive made a few sheds in my time, i make a good shed if i do say so myself but then its not as cheap as what can be got over here in done deal but some of them would just scare me, they would give you a heart attack id imagine...
for long enough the only spec of a shed i used here was the dept of agri spec brochure for it was about the only thing you had to go off for agri sheds.
back in 2014 we all got new rules and hoops to jump through because something like 5 or ten thousand sheds collapsed in the winter of 2010 with the snow.
something had to be done over that so they introduced the CE marking system.
so that means if i want to make a shed to CE spec i need to cough up 8k for the luxury of it, and another 2k a year to keep it iirc.
and the buyer has to get PP passed, then a structural engineer to draw up plans, and then get me to make it (if i was CE cert'ed).
that sounds cheap dosent it.....
so to get round that i see lads advertising sheds with CE timber, sheets and roofing.
but of course it is, but the lad that sticks it together isnt...
i agree with the principal for there was some regulation needed, but hey, 8 feckin k's worth for a bit of paper.........., come on...............
Good EveningTin Man.welcome aboard gusbs.
you sound like a lad who ate a rule book but i cant say your not right, you are in everything you say, but you have to be too.
ive made a few sheds in my time, i make a good shed if i do say so myself but then its not as cheap as what can be got over here in done deal but some of them would just scare me, they would give you a heart attack id imagine...
for long enough the only spec of a shed i used here was the dept of agri spec brochure for it was about the only thing you had to go off for agri sheds.
back in 2014 we all got new rules and hoops to jump through because something like 5 or ten thousand sheds collapsed in the winter of 2010 with the snow.
something had to be done over that so they introduced the CE marking system.
so that means if i want to make a shed to CE spec i need to cough up 8k for the luxury of it, and another 2k a year to keep it iirc.
and the buyer has to get PP passed, then a structural engineer to draw up plans, and then get me to make it (if i was CE cert'ed).
that sounds cheap dosent it.....
so to get round that i see lads advertising sheds with CE timber, sheets and roofing.
but of course it is, but the lad that sticks it together isnt...
i agree with the principal for there was some regulation needed, but hey, 8 feckin k's worth for a bit of paper.........., come on...............
I suspected I might take a bit of flac for some of my posts as I'm a new member and still feeling my way. You make some very good points and although a bit late, here are my immediate comments.. I'll deal with them in turn. Personally ....always knowingly try my best to eat British or Irish Beef... and when I'm feeling flush some of the rear breeds.
I'm also going to speak personally here and without predudice in the following comment I make. Please forgive me for this but need to qualify this as we are in a public forum, but to quote you....
" i make a good shed if i do say so myself " There is no doubt that I my mind that there are a many people in the farming community that can weld expertly, work by rules of thumb and turn out a building that will be safe and secure your capex investment for future generations. Before you do this, way up the risk and ask.... it's generally free.
"5 or ten thousand sheds collapsed in the winter of 2010 with the snow." There is a good report by the Scottish SER Engineers register scheme on this. If you look at this and dig deeper many of these structures collapsed not because ( if they were designed at all or followed the agri spec tables) they were badly designed but a good few were not maintained and many had not been erected properly in the first place. Some had been altered and this can make a building VERY unstable.
While I will no doubt be making a rod for my own back here and as a person who has experience of taking a company through the CE marking process... it did strike me at times as being a "jobs for the boys" excercise and that does not sit well with me Here is the technical bit. You will find many Engineers still use the British Standards... served us well... inviting discussion...
"i need to cough up 8k for the luxury of it".... you need a new Engineer.
If your talking about a standard shed.
My personal view is this... inform your client then design them something that will meet their requirements, do it well and explain to them how and where the tipping point is between spending too much design fee vs the benefit. In other words, I can spend a lot of time getting you a light frame and charge you a heathy fee OR I can, at the out set, particularly on a small building, just say, based on experience and some basic checks that it will work fine and sign it off under my PI insurance. Your steelwork will be heavier but you keep that and I can sleep at night. You can have a light frame but I keep the fee! As an Engineer the aim is to deliver something that will save the client money and deliver what they asked for.
That said, the CE marking sets a standard but is is not really working yet. You will see many light frames out there ( see my post on " getting the right price"). Now here is just one of the loop holes for the unwary in the new CE marking and the Eurocodes.... BS 5502-22 now linked to the Eurcodes says we have to design to the Eurocodes.
One aspect of the ECs is that deflection limits are to be agreed with the client. You buy a building... expect a cladding warranty... but under the new code if these deflection limits are not explained to you then your cladding warranty for example could be be void, nail this before you pay a deposit or compare prices. Either your cheep "home made" frame may not realise the saving you think you have made or you will have made your frame heavier than it needs to be.
Under the "old" BS there were deflection limit guidelines backed up by the Steel Construction Institute.....how can you agree something if you don't know, unless the supplier is open with you? is this progress?
Think about it this way.. If are lucky to have an accountant then if they can't save you more money than you pay them plus your time to do it yourself then what is the point? Same applies to Engineers !
An old saying is that money is made flat to stack high but it is also made round to go round !. lets keep sharing information to the benefit of all.
Lastly.... constructive comments welcome.... or any others...
Nearly
Member
- Location
- North of York
It is a real shame that we have to use the "Without Prejudice" tag today. There are lots out there who want a piece of something for nothing, and wherever someone can point a finger to help this cause - then they will.
Don't worry about the flack, I get it too because I ask the wrong questions, or make a wrong response. Just relax and enjoy the ride, as a lot on here are very helpful
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Forever Fendt
Member
- Location
- Derbyshire
So lets cut to the chase @gusbs5502 how much would you charge to do calcs for a std cattle shed so no actual load on frame for say 7 x 15 ft bays x 50ft span 14 ft to eaves with cladding on 2 ends and 1 side with concrete panels below including for foundation size in clay
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Hopefully this helps but I'm not here to tout for work so I won't be giving you a price but for anyone who wants a rough idea here goes. You'll find people who will work out a quick wind load, run the frame through a standard commercial frame design package, press print and send you the output and might charge you £ 300.00 or less..... you have just got £ 300 quids worth of output. Some of the overheads are; paying for the software cost, updates, professional indemnity insurance for at least the next 5 years and so on if your lucky. Now if you, the detailer, fabricator, contractor etc have any queries on how to convert this computer output into a building will your £ 300 also get you a quick informed response ?
If on the other hand you want a clear a concise well laid out calculation pack which everyone can understand, some good clear sketches and drawings all backed up with a voice at the end of the phone and maybe some free advice chucked in, no nasty bill if you make a minor change and so on then you may think that this is worth paying say £1000.00 pounds or a bit more.
Once you have the calcs you still need to get the frame detailed. For those who don't know once the steelwork, bracing, connections etc have been designed by the Engineer you usually use specialist software to model the frame in 3D. Many of the software packages then produce what we call the fabrication drawings and a set of computer data files that can be read by the fabricators machines. Some fabricators will detail in house and this cost is built into their price. Some don't detail so an external detailer will often do this and should work closely with the Engineer.
I have seen a quote of £300 for this work, the client accepted against advice....the detailer never delivered the goods...Much of the software available is not fully automated and still needs a bit of manual input.... this takes time. So depending on demand you might expect to see people quoting up to £1000 - 2000.00 to get something like this detailed.
Some fabricators use the same fabrication pack over and over again and just get someone to check the loadings. This dilutes the design and detailing cost over many buildings and thus it's always worth asking if they have a kit" or words to that effect.
It would be interesting to hear others views on this
if you dont mind ill call you Gus, gusb5502
the time the CE came out i inquired about it to see what was the process if i wanted to go down that road.
there was a small litany of hurdles i had to jump over to complete it, its 2 yrs ago since i looked into it but it involved some courses, a weld test and certification , plenty of paperwork and a workshop inspection.
i was quoted 8k by 3 different crowds doing the certification so they were all singing off the same hymn sheet to me.
things may have changed since but back in 14 that was the gig.
Now, im annoyed about it but at the same time i agree that standards had to be improved in some way for there was/is a lot of bad workmanship/design out there re shed frames and its hard to cover everyone so a blanket rule was set up, fair enough bar the cost.
for the amount of sheds id make in a year, as its only one of a few different jobs i do here, it wasnt going to pay me to spend the likes of that money to go legal.
i rang the NSAI over here and asked about it,
i asked the lady who was going to police it, she said nobody.
i asked her if i made a shed that you could land a helicopter on, she said id be in a different class (akin to sky scrapers) and if anything happened to it then Id be in far more trouble.
i asked her why should i be worried about it then so and she asked me if id be willing to drive on the road with no insurance, i said i wouldnt and she said, then dont make any sheds...
it was on the grape vine at the time that a few crowds doing the CE certification had done reports for some insurance company's, so my guess is, and you can be sure of it , that if John doe puts up a shed that isnt CE marked after june 2014 then there could be a lot of folk in bother.
the man that made it is in trouble, the customer, Who it was reported would be 50% at fault because he was to know about the CE scheme, and the man that made it was 50% or more at fault for not telling the customer about it.
and the insurance crowd probably wouldn't t pay out because of the above, along with the fact there is a damn good chance that they wouldn't pay out on anything inside the shed that was damaged too, even tho in the case of a tractor, that had its own insurance it probably wouldn't be covered either.
you just know the ins crowd would love to find any loop hole they could jump through to avoid coughing up.
so i pretty much quit the sheds, i dont miss the money as the void has been filled with more workshop work so thats grand by me tbh.
id do an extension to an existing shed using the same if not better steel, knee and apex joints, id consider that a safe enough bet but id tell the customer the craic and if he was happy to sign the invoice to say he bought the shed knowing there was no CE then that id pass my safety meter tbh.
the sheds fair enough.
but say a lad comes here and he wants me to weld a nut or a plate to a steel lintel he is using for over a door in his new house,
i cant do that either...
basically to me the best way to look at it was if a human could touch it, then it needed a CE cert, handrails, barriers and such.
that imo is mad.
No need to say without prejudiced on anything here unless your needin to cover your own butt on a certain thing.
this is an internet forum, the advice here is worth about as much as anyone paid for it, common sense should suggest to folk that nothing is to be taken as a given, its just good folk doing their best to help guide lads in the right direction from their own experiences for free.
there is a wealth of knowledge on this forum, every day it impresses me tbh.
as for the sheds, self praise is no praise imo so here is a pic or two of the kind of work id do.
im sure there could be room for improvement but id be pretty happy with it.
the time the CE came out i inquired about it to see what was the process if i wanted to go down that road.
there was a small litany of hurdles i had to jump over to complete it, its 2 yrs ago since i looked into it but it involved some courses, a weld test and certification , plenty of paperwork and a workshop inspection.
i was quoted 8k by 3 different crowds doing the certification so they were all singing off the same hymn sheet to me.
things may have changed since but back in 14 that was the gig.
Now, im annoyed about it but at the same time i agree that standards had to be improved in some way for there was/is a lot of bad workmanship/design out there re shed frames and its hard to cover everyone so a blanket rule was set up, fair enough bar the cost.
for the amount of sheds id make in a year, as its only one of a few different jobs i do here, it wasnt going to pay me to spend the likes of that money to go legal.
i rang the NSAI over here and asked about it,
i asked the lady who was going to police it, she said nobody.
i asked her if i made a shed that you could land a helicopter on, she said id be in a different class (akin to sky scrapers) and if anything happened to it then Id be in far more trouble.
i asked her why should i be worried about it then so and she asked me if id be willing to drive on the road with no insurance, i said i wouldnt and she said, then dont make any sheds...
it was on the grape vine at the time that a few crowds doing the CE certification had done reports for some insurance company's, so my guess is, and you can be sure of it , that if John doe puts up a shed that isnt CE marked after june 2014 then there could be a lot of folk in bother.
the man that made it is in trouble, the customer, Who it was reported would be 50% at fault because he was to know about the CE scheme, and the man that made it was 50% or more at fault for not telling the customer about it.
and the insurance crowd probably wouldn't t pay out because of the above, along with the fact there is a damn good chance that they wouldn't pay out on anything inside the shed that was damaged too, even tho in the case of a tractor, that had its own insurance it probably wouldn't be covered either.
you just know the ins crowd would love to find any loop hole they could jump through to avoid coughing up.
so i pretty much quit the sheds, i dont miss the money as the void has been filled with more workshop work so thats grand by me tbh.
id do an extension to an existing shed using the same if not better steel, knee and apex joints, id consider that a safe enough bet but id tell the customer the craic and if he was happy to sign the invoice to say he bought the shed knowing there was no CE then that id pass my safety meter tbh.
the sheds fair enough.
but say a lad comes here and he wants me to weld a nut or a plate to a steel lintel he is using for over a door in his new house,
i cant do that either...
basically to me the best way to look at it was if a human could touch it, then it needed a CE cert, handrails, barriers and such.
that imo is mad.
No need to say without prejudiced on anything here unless your needin to cover your own butt on a certain thing.
this is an internet forum, the advice here is worth about as much as anyone paid for it, common sense should suggest to folk that nothing is to be taken as a given, its just good folk doing their best to help guide lads in the right direction from their own experiences for free.
there is a wealth of knowledge on this forum, every day it impresses me tbh.
as for the sheds, self praise is no praise imo so here is a pic or two of the kind of work id do.
im sure there could be room for improvement but id be pretty happy with it.
Attachments
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Forever Fendt
Member
- Location
- Derbyshire
I asked for a rough price for the calcs of a cattle building you talk about the £300 guy and tell us about all the pit falls so i take it your in the £1000 +camp the normal (£300) calcs would include all the connections and maybe a separate sheet showing eaves /apex connections and all the relevant information to detail the steelwork why any one would want any more or clear and concise drawings i don't know and if they could not interpret a simple set of calcs. i would be concerned about there ability to undertake the job, And as for £1000-£2000 to draw a simple cattle building up with so many repetitive items sounds like day light robbery to me but that is just my opinion
RWG Contracts
Member
- Location
- Samlesbury, Lancashire
What are calcs? I just guess
Forever Fendt
Member
- Location
- Derbyshire
i would carry on because its saving you or your customer 3 grand a time and has environmental benefits with all the paper you are saving
RWG Contracts
Member
- Location
- Samlesbury, Lancashire