"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

[Guleesh]

That’s usually the case. I don’t practice what I preach because my cows are all sentimental

I guess the best that can be done is mark down the ones that show the soonest/the most severe. Maybe when you go to cull you’ll find they have other issues going on as well or you’ll just have them on record so if you need numbers to make a full load or to fill the freezer, they’re easy to look up. Or you at least have the record to see if it is certain family lines you maybe won’t want to keep lambs from.

Never hurts to record.

Aye that is sound policy, I admit that for some reason I've never considered that lice is a problem worth noting down against a ewe but from today onwards it will be, and although I doubt I'll act on it any time soon it'll be very interesting to see if a picture builds and if it's the same ewes every time.

 

[GC74]

We found there to be a massive difference between "having sheep" and "keeping sheep" - FWIW @Guleesh

Having sheep on a 10 month loan is long enough for problems to begin to show up
But "keeping sheep" on the same little tract of land for 400 years is a much different context, especially when there are no real avenues for dead-end hosts

The human equivalent would be testing for C-19 and all positive tests then go and volunteer in maternity wards, in theory you soon get great herd immunity but in practice you have a lot of people asking why you "put those little babies at such risk" and bury a lot of extra people for a start

You've lost the plot this time KP starting in maternity wards is ridiculous parliament is the place to start

 

[Kiwi Pete]

That’s usually the case. I don’t practice what I preach because my cows are all sentimental

I guess the best that can be done is mark down the ones that show the soonest/the most severe. Maybe when you go to cull you’ll find they have other issues going on as well or you’ll just have them on record so if you need numbers to make a full load or to fill the freezer, they’re easy to look up. Or you at least have the record to see if it is certain family lines you maybe won’t want to keep lambs from.

Never hurts to record.

I think there are individuals where the "black marks" just keep compounding? Do you find that?

We had a few hoggets/ewe lambs here that I soon picked up on, kept an eye out and they just really didn't ever "do" like the others.
Ended up with not one of them rearing a lamb, and two "put a reed out" as I think the Brits would call it, most regenerative sheep of the lot as they went in the compost heap and are "pushing up daisies" now

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Afterburn

Wildfires were rare in Aotearoa prior to humans. That changed, but it is climate change that will fuel the inferno of the future.

www.nzgeo.com

 

[GC74]

Well I used to do the standard routine of giving them 'the works' every time they were in, which is the most cost efficient way of doing it, The cost of gathering in many places outweighs the cost of the medicines. After a few years it becomes apparent to me that If you bring in ewes for lambing and tupping every year at the same time, give them 'the works' and have them all manuring your good ground with their contaminated faeces then what I'm doing is concentrating all the chemical onto my best ground, and that ground is obviously suffering badly for it.

Since then we've worked to reduce as much as possible what chemicals we're using, the only wormer the ewes have received in the last 2 years has been a single cydectin injection they got for scab. Ticks, are something we don't worry about anymore and have seen almost no ill effects, but probably need to use something on lambs as ewes carrying a few more ticks are spreading more ticks.

We haven't treated for lice or scab until we've see it, but when we do suspect it we have to act very swiftly.

Fluke was initially a problem that increased with higher density stocking of ewes, obviously forcing them to graze more flukey ground that they would normally avoid. We have to pre-empt fluke to an extent as once the symptoms are showing the damage is already done. I think the fluke problem has already started to lessen with longer rest periods between grazes.

I believe the various chemicals at our disposal to treat these things are very valuable tools indeed, but also very expensive- not just in financial cost but in terms of damage to soil health. I think that with better timings (holistic planning?) I can at least protect the better ground from being continually poisoned whilst still maintaining the level of welfare necessary.

There's very little point in me trying to keep the hill ground chemical free when other people refuse to become hippies like me and continue to give their stock 'the works' every time they're gathered in.

I definitely want to start work on marking lice carrying ewes for cull, but the truth is there are far more important problems that need culling out of the flock first. We have a lot of work to do on increasing weaning rates and cutting out feed costs. Almost all of the sheep keepers around me reckon all sheep will disappear from the area if subsidy goes, plenty admit they make a loss without subsidy.

There are a lot of factors at play.

You are right about a lot of factors at play both inside and outside the farm, speaking to a mate earlier about this and he said "I feel like sticking my head in the sand and just farm the way I want" I tend to agree.
Hope you don't mind me asking but What are you seeing that makes you say the ground is suffering from chemical contaminantion?

 

[GC74]

Very little, he's cut back a lot on fert now, I am going to put a bit of MOP and serp super on it soon as it happens.
They tickle it "little and often", probably not worth doing TBH but spending money and seeing tramlines makes a farmer feel good.

I don't have concerns about that, more the ragwort up there

The ragwort is probably a result of him using MOP hopefully the volatilisation of the Chlorine has taken place before it gets to your place.

 

[Guleesh]

You are right about a lot of factors at play both inside and outside the farm, speaking to a mate earlier about this and he said "I feel like sticking my head in the sand and just farm the way I want" I tend to agree.
Hope you don't mind me asking but What are you seeing that makes you say the ground is suffering from chemical contaminantion?

Observing sheep sh!t from ewes recently dosed with cypermethrin/deltamethrin products and watching it sit there for weeks and turn a grey colour and just kind of dry up. At the same time in nearby fields 'Clean' sheep sh!t from untreated animals were crawling with flies, beetles and when you kick them over worms underneath them.

I was just telling my wife today that there was lapwings on the field every year when I was younger, which are now completely absent, we used to collect large field mushrooms most years on that field when I was a child, these days there might be the odd mushroom every couple of years.

Add to that the obvious general direction the quality of grazing was heading.

I realise there could be many other factors at play but the fact of the matter is persistent chemical usage is systematically killing the insects that are so vital in breaking down the manure and returning it quickly into the ground.

I spend time most days walking the ground, and rather than looking at the sheep or admiring the view I'm focussed on the breakdown of the manure and the corresponding growth. It took me a few years of wandering about kicking sheep sh!t about to really build up a picture of what's going on.

Since making a determined effort to keep the ground as chemical free as possible, I can see the difference, and it's the difference between growing more grass than the previous year or growing less.

 

[Blaithin]

I think there are individuals where the "black marks" just keep compounding? Do you find that?

We had a few hoggets/ewe lambs here that I soon picked up on, kept an eye out and they just really didn't ever "do" like the others.
Ended up with not one of them rearing a lamb, and two "put a reed out" as I think the Brits would call it, most regenerative sheep of the lot as they went in the compost heap and are "pushing up daisies" now

In cows we call them poor doers. I hated them at the feedlot, wasting away for no discernible reason and you just knew when you did a PM there would be nothing to see.

With parasites it’s said low immune systems leave them vulnerable. We cull for things like conformation and udder and birthing and breed back (fertility is probably the biggest cull factor for any herd or flock), yet for some reason we don’t cull hard for immune system strength. That takes a back seat. If we were to record everything against an animal, parasite loads, looking punky, actually treated, slow bounce back from stress, it should theoretically give us a picture of an animal with a weak immune system, one that we may decide we don’t want to keep genetics from or deal with it’s required pampering anymore.

Or if it’s a significant amount of animals being recorded, at inconsistent times, it could be a sign of needing a bit of work on the mineral program.

The biggest weak immunity issue facing cattle is BVD. Generally you want to know if you’ve got a PI spreading in your herd. BLV is another one that can pop up. Both those would usually be considered a culling issue so why not keep track of the little signs that may add up to a positive test for them.

 

[Fenwick]

My quad is a 2003 350cc 2wd Honda Fourtrak. Does my job

great machine. my 1993 4wd model just gave up on me not repairing her this Time.

 

[GC74]

Observing sheep sh!t from ewes recently dosed with cypermethrin/deltamethrin products and watching it sit there for weeks and turn a grey colour and just kind of dry up. At the same time in nearby fields 'Clean' sheep sh!t from untreated animals were crawling with flies, beetles and when you kick them over worms underneath them.

I was just telling my wife today that there was lapwings on the field every year when I was younger, which are now completely absent, we used to collect large field mushrooms most years on that field when I was a child, these days there might be the odd mushroom every couple of years.

Add to that the obvious general direction the quality of grazing was heading.

I realise there could be many other factors at play but the fact of the matter is persistent chemical usage is systematically killing the insects that are so vital in breaking down the manure and returning it quickly into the ground.

I spend time most days walking the ground, and rather than looking at the sheep or admiring the view I'm focussed on the breakdown of the manure and the corresponding growth. It took me a few years of wandering about kicking sheep sh!t about to really build up a picture of what's going on.

Since making a determined effort to keep the ground as chemical free as possible, I can see the difference, and it's the difference between growing more grass than the previous year or growing less.

Seen similar things with the breakdown of manure too but had the most mushrooms in 17 and 18 since the early eighties.
Here I would like another source of k and dairy Effluent from next door is an obvious choice but the use of mag chloride and wash down chems puts me off!

 

[som farmer]

this should please the NZ contingent, the wine grapes, grown in the major wine making areas of europe, the root stocks could be 100 yrs + old, the amount, and type of chemicals, from arsenic, copper sulphate, to modern sprays, are now in the 'make up' of the grapes, and can affect taste. Grapes sown in the 'new' wine growing regions, ie NZ, are of superior quality, due to the less harmful sprays used.
The trouble with all new things, we have little idea of the long term affect. When they sprayed arsenic on those grapes, i expect it was a fantastic result, and this applies to sprays, wormers we use today. The op's we used dipping sheep, were meant to be awful, but at least they broke down in the soil, the new ones don't, this goes for all sorts of things, though an earthworm, resistant to livestock wormers, could be good..................!

 

[Kiwi Pete]

The ragwort is probably a result of him using MOP hopefully the volatilisation of the Chlorine has taken place before it gets to your place.

It's more a result of being a dairy farm run by people too tired to control their weeds for the past 20-25 years. They seem to wait until the whole hill (relatively new pasture) is in bloom and then wipe the flowering plants, unsure why they wait so long!

 

[GC74]

Ok but ragwort likes soil with high k and mag. Low humus and biological activity and poor soil porosity, these 3 are badly effected by chlorine which MOP has a lot of. Also as mentioned earlier in this thread there's a massive seed bank sitting in the soil wait for the right environment for it to germinate...so I'll still stick to what I said.

 

[Blaithin]

I forgot I took this photo the other day. I was filling up the trough and noticed a dozen house sparrows and red polls chowing down on a fresh cow poop. It was like a warm grain delicacy!

The chickens haven’t been outside in a week so every poop I found like this is obviously the little birds at work. And there are LOTS of poops like this. I’d say probably the only ones that freeze as piles are the night time poos. These are also the poos more likely to capsize my calf sled full of hay.... I need nocturnal poo birds too!!

 

[GC74]

this should please the NZ contingent, the wine grapes, grown in the major wine making areas of europe, the root stocks could be 100 yrs + old, the amount, and type of chemicals, from arsenic, copper sulphate, to modern sprays, are now in the 'make up' of the grapes, and can affect taste. Grapes sown in the 'new' wine growing regions, ie NZ, are of superior quality, due to the less harmful sprays used.
The trouble with all new things, we have little idea of the long term affect. When they sprayed arsenic on those grapes, i expect it was a fantastic result, and this applies to sprays, wormers we use today. The op's we used dipping sheep, were meant to be awful, but at least they broke down in the soil, the new ones don't, this goes for all sorts of things, though an earthworm, resistant to livestock wormers, could be good..................!

Hummm probably why a lot of cropping guys say there's nothing like fresh ground to grow good crops. Even if they've been in PP for over 10 years.

 

[GC74]

Observing sheep sh!t from ewes recently dosed with cypermethrin/deltamethrin products and watching it sit there for weeks and turn a grey colour and just kind of dry up. At the same time in nearby fields 'Clean' sheep sh!t from untreated animals were crawling with flies, beetles and when you kick them over worms underneath them.

I was just telling my wife today that there was lapwings on the field every year when I was younger, which are now completely absent, we used to collect large field mushrooms most years on that field when I was a child, these days there might be the odd mushroom every couple of years.

Add to that the obvious general direction the quality of grazing was heading.

I realise there could be many other factors at play but the fact of the matter is persistent chemical usage is systematically killing the insects that are so vital in breaking down the manure and returning it quickly into the ground.

I spend time most days walking the ground, and rather than looking at the sheep or admiring the view I'm focussed on the breakdown of the manure and the corresponding growth. It took me a few years of wandering about kicking sheep sh!t about to really build up a picture of what's going on.

Since making a determined effort to keep the ground as chemical free as possible, I can see the difference, and it's the difference between growing more grass than the previous year or growing less.

I've just had i brain wave, back at the weekend I think I said we have a paddock that has had a fence taken down across one end of it in 1984 and it's still no good well that end of that paddock used to be part of a small holding paddock for my old neighbors woolshed and sheep yards bet that paddock held a lot of sheep overnight that have had "the works" given to them over the years.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Ok but ragwort likes soil with high k and mag. Low humus and biological activity and poor soil porosity, these 3 are badly effected by chlorine which MOP has a lot of. Also as mentioned earlier in this thread there's a massive seed bank sitting in the soil wait for the right environment for it to germinate...so I'll still stick to what I said.

This is actually really low in K and Mg, hence all he's putting on it now is Fishit and this serp/MOP mix at a low rate.

Hugely compacted though, we should have had a dig when you were here and then wandered over and broken the spade at his place

His seedbank gets a fairly good deposit every year, I have no idea why they leave it all to flower and then spend the $$ on chemical. Better to spend the time and $$ 6 weeks earlier and actually make a difference??
They milk OAD and have plenty of labour units, just CBF I think.

 

[GC74]

This is actually really low in K and Mg, hence all he's putting on it now is Fishit and this serp/MOP mix at a low rate.

Hugely compacted though, we should have had a dig when you were here and then wandered over and broken the spade at his place

His seedbank gets a fairly good deposit every year, I have no idea why they leave it all to flower and then spend the $$ on chemical. Better to spend the time and $$ 6 weeks earlier and actually make a difference??
They milk OAD and have plenty of labour units, just CBF I think.

Soil tests probably does say it low it’s what’s available is important.....next door his soil test are really good near perfect grows no grass you can see the disc mower scoops 3-6 months later! His bank manger doesn’t understand it!

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Soil tests probably does say it low it’s what’s available is important.....next door his soil test are really good near perfect grows no grass you can see the disc mower scoops 3-6 months later! His bank manger doesn’t understand it!

Exactly this ^^^^^ biological deficiency, not chemical

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Our soil tests are certainly nothing to write home about as far as "levels" go, but almost perfectly balanced if you follow Albrecht.

I guess it's a lot like what happens on farm, you can have 'all the right stuff' and make little profit if you aren't turning product into $$$

or you have just 'enough' and make quite serious money in a sustainable fashion