Is BPS actually good value for money?

[delilah]

er...me. I endure a daily exchange, whenever the weather isn't blowing a driving rain storm, with the GB public.
And 15-25% would be completely ignorant of what I do, while 10% know enough to want me gone/controlled/dead.

By comparison, where I was herding cows in the south tyrol, the visiting public uniformly adore the idea that the cows still go to the mountains, wear bells, and generally keep up traditions. They buy the produce, expect it to cost whatever it does, and would be outraged by a government that suggested 'rewilding'.
(indeed, the debate rages there, as central Italian gov toy with protecting predators, while regional gov says 'do what you have to boys!')

So: The majority of the public love you, whilst Govt isn't sure what it wants. Just like in Italy.
So, tell Govt what it should do with the money. That was the only point I was making. Because if you don't tell them now, there will be little point in moaning they got it wrong for the rest of your days.

 

[egbert]

So: The majority of the public love you, whilst Govt isn't sure what it wants. Just like in Italy.
So, tell Govt what it should do with the money. That was the only point I was making. Because if you don't tell them now, there will be little point in moaning they got it wrong for the rest of your days.

No, absolutely not.
In the valleys of south tyrol, (and in other alpine and sub alpine communities I slunk through) everyone was right behind the farming community.
Dang, the farmers are the community, everything else revolves around them, except the ski-ing...and that relies on their beasts anyway.

And i do tell gov occasionally weekly, on a semi-professional basis.

 

[delilah]

And i do tell gov occasionally weekly, on a semi-professional basis.

 

[Henarar]

No, absolutely not.
In the valleys of south tyrol, (and in other alpine and sub alpine communities I slunk through) everyone was right behind the farming community.
Dang, the farmers are the community, everything else revolves around them, except the ski-ing...and that relies on their beasts anyway.

And i do tell gov occasionally weekly, on a semi-professional basis.

Do you get a response

 

[egbert]

Do you get a response

officially, no. however, according to various dept apparatchik ....oh yes!

 

[Top Tip.]

I understand your concerns, I think they are overly pessimistic, but a lot of farmers seem to think that the coming generations wont be able to overcome any problems. No offence, but It's slightly arrogant to think that nobody can do things better than you. That being said I appreciate that an abrupt end of support would see an immediate loss of a significant number of businesses. I'd rather more would see that the good times that subsidies have brought can't last forever and adapt to try and prioritise profitability whilst they can still afford to, an abrupt crash needn't be the case.

I believe that generations of subsidy is what has led to this situation of unprofitable businesses dominating the landscape, and also believe that there will always be a future for agriculture in the area, even in the unlikely event that all aid is withdrawn. However I suspect that money will be thrown at crofting in particular for the foreseeable future.

Would you just quit and sell up if all schemes and grants ended tomorrow?

These businesses are in the main profitable but only through the support system. I would definitely bail if there was no support,I am far too old to suffer a hand to mouth existence such as would exist without support. I have farmed through bse and foot and mouth where even with support it was little more than an existence,no matter how efficient you were .
I would therefore be joining the masses in switching the lights off on my farming enterprise .

 

[Guleesh]

These businesses are in the main profitable but only through the support system. I would definitely bail if there was no support,I am far too old to suffer a hand to mouth existence such as would exist without support. I have farmed through bse and foot and mouth where even with support it was little more than an existence,no matter how efficient you were .
I would therefore be joining the masses in switching the lights off on my farming enterprise .

Ah, well.... I'm not completely heartless, and find your post a bit sad. I know many in your position, who would agree with you, and I don't wish hardship on them. It is however, because I care about agriculture around my own home that I endeavour to ensure a future for it. Eternal subsidies are not going to happen, obviously subs are popular with farmers, but the general public are getting increasingly aware of how it all works and are not happy, I just can't see that it can continue forever.

Morally, I struggle to feel entitled to money that I know others have worked for and been taxed for, I've worked hard and been taxed, and I know many people that work harder than I now do, including my own family members, why should they pay tax to subsidise my chosen lifestyle? I sincerely hope that the Highlands can be weaned off of being in a state of requiring continual aid, we'll never be the richest part of the country, but I don't think that money is the reason that anybody chooses to stay and live here.

 

[Top Tip.]

Ah, well.... I'm not completely heartless, and find your post a bit sad. I know many in your position, who would agree with you, and I don't wish hardship on them. It is however, because I care about agriculture around my own home that I endeavour to ensure a future for it. Eternal subsidies are not going to happen, obviously subs are popular with farmers, but the general public are getting increasingly aware of how it all works and are not happy, I just can't see that it can continue forever.

Morally, I struggle to feel entitled to money that I know others have worked for and been taxed for, I've worked hard and been taxed, and I know many people that work harder than I now do, including my own family members, why should they pay tax to subsidise my chosen lifestyle? I sincerely hope that the Highlands can be weaned off of being in a state of requiring continual aid, we'll never be the richest part of the country, but I don't think that money is the reason that anybody chooses to stay and live here.

I look on the support system from a totally different perspective from you . I see it as enabling me to produce food at a price that gives cheap food to the masses. To enable me to continue farming without support the price of my lambs and calves would need to double this would be the end of cheap food. Any saving to the tax payer on the tax they pay would be totally eliminated by the increase in their food bill. At the moment I see myself subsidising the tax payer because they are getting a great return on their investment for the hours that I put in,after coming through lambing and calving working 100 hour plus weeks I would say they are getting the best end of the deal.

 

[Guleesh]

I look on the support system from a totally different perspective from you . I see it as enabling me to produce food at a price that gives cheap food to the masses. To enable me to continue farming without support the price of my lambs and calves would need to double this would be the end of cheap food. Any saving to the tax payer on the tax they pay would be totally eliminated by the increase in their food bill. At the moment I see myself subsidising the tax payer because they are getting a great return on their investment for the hours that I put in,after coming through lambing and calving working 100 hour plus weeks I would say they are getting the best end of the deal.

Your perspective is valid. and I respect you've done the best you can do in the circumstances and times that you've farmed in.

My perspective is that although cheap food seems like a good idea, it actually isn't. Food is one of the base necessities and also pleasures in life, and why it and it's value should be as worthless as it is puzzles me. It wasn't long ago that people would be grateful for food, indeed, thanks to God was given before every meal. These days cheap food is produced, fertility of soil is depleted for veg to be grown and animals are raised and slaughtered so that everybody can leave half of it on their plate and then chuck it in the bin.

It's all on its head.

 

[unlacedgecko]

Can only speak for my own area but these subs are going to family farms, without them these communities and farms will no longer exist. You are talking about the removal of a culture,heritage and way of life, if this was happening to any other indigenous people across the world there would be an international outrage.

Come with me and I’ll take you on a tour of the mining and fishing villages of North East England.

 

[Top Tip.]

Come with me and I’ll take you on a tour of the mining and fishing villages of North East England.

Good point.

 

[unlacedgecko]

Before the question in the OP is answered, it’s probably necessary to workout what the actual aim of BPS is...

 

[Henarar]

Ah, well.... I'm not completely heartless, and find your post a bit sad. I know many in your position, who would agree with you, and I don't wish hardship on them. It is however, because I care about agriculture around my own home that I endeavour to ensure a future for it. Eternal subsidies are not going to happen, obviously subs are popular with farmers, but the general public are getting increasingly aware of how it all works and are not happy, I just can't see that it can continue forever.

Morally, I struggle to feel entitled to money that I know others have worked for and been taxed for, I've worked hard and been taxed, and I know many people that work harder than I now do, including my own family members, why should they pay tax to subsidise my chosen lifestyle? I sincerely hope that the Highlands can be weaned off of being in a state of requiring continual aid, we'll never be the richest part of the country, but I don't think that money is the reason that anybody chooses to stay and live here.

There are plenty of non farmers that have tax payer funded lifestyles

 

[Henarar]

Before the question in the OP is answered, it’s probably necessary to workout what the actual aim of BPS is...

Keep the land in GAEC

 

[Guleesh]

There are plenty of non farmers that have tax payer funded lifestyles

Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[Henarar]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Yep thats my point
If your going to get rid of some why not the bloody lot

 

[Guleesh]

Yep thats my point
If your going to get rid of some why not the bloody lot

Yes, Ideally things should either be Nationalised or Privatised, not Subsidised.

 

[Henarar]

Yes, Ideally things should either be Nationalised or Privatised, not Subsidised.

If you got rid of all subsidy you couldn't have things nationalised, you couldn't have the government providing anything so no need for government

 

[Jimdog1]

Your perspective is valid. and I respect you've done the best you can do in the circumstances and times that you've farmed in.

My perspective is that although cheap food seems like a good idea, it actually isn't. Food is one of the base necessities and also pleasures in life, and why it and it's value should be as worthless as it is puzzles me. It wasn't long ago that people would be grateful for food, indeed, thanks to God was given before every meal. These days cheap food is produced, fertility of soil is depleted for veg to be grown and animals are raised and slaughtered so that everybody can leave half of it on their plate and then chuck it in the bin.

It's all on its head.

I get your argument but I fear that the public are not going to enjoy paying a higher proportion of their wage on food that will be required when subsidies disappear. High prices at the farm gate will be followed by lows that will fuel a boom and bust cycle which can only be countered by processors paying a consistently higher price to farmers to ensure a steady supply . Whilst nobody owes me a living I am not obliged to produce food for little in return

 

[Guleesh]

If you got rid of all subsidy you couldn't have things nationalised, you couldn't have the government providing anything so no need for government

It makes sense to have some things nationalised though, like the national grid and the transport networks , we don't need the government sticking it's nose into every little aspect of our lives though IMO.