Johnes :-(

[Slowcow]

Hi all,
I'm after a bit of opinion/experience of johnes control.
We supply omsco and they would like us to put in place a johnes control strategy.

After a chat with the vet we decided to blood test our dairy herd, two cows came back positive, both around 250%.

All the rest are very low, both cows have been bought in , one around 4 years ago (from a large herd in looe of some dosh but that's a different tale!) The other 18 months ago from a small herd.

The older one is the best of the bunch we had in, always holds and has nice heifers, the last one born over the weekend, I let her lick it off gave it some saved clean colostrum and took it away.

The first of her heifers should be calving in now but has lost her calf, there is another one somewhere around 12 months now this one, I'm pretty sure the first two would have suckled her.

After a bit of reading up I think the two cows will be going as soon as possible which seems to be about two weeks.

Should I shift on her progeny too? What have others done in this situation?

It seems you can't test until they are two years old so if its gone as it should just before calving.

We have been pretty well closed other than these so I think we shouldn't have a problem once they are gone?

The other younger cow has been difficult to get in calf and is now going back quite fast , looks like a picture of early stages so I think the test is reliable.

Next problem is we've just gone down with tb after four or five years clear, so 60 day testing makes johnes testing difficult
Cheers

 

[Princess Pooper]

As you have learned, younger animals can be carrying it and not show positive until older. So I would be very surprised if you have no more once the two have gone. A lot depends on your historic farming practices - one farmer I know had almost a whole year group test positive as 3-4 year olds and they were all a group of heifer calves that had been fed pooled colostrum. Colostrum management, cow/calf separation etc make a big difference to spread. I am not organic but I think you would have left cows with new born cows for a longer period than is typical on conventional farms? Perfect opportunity for Johnes spread if there are several calves in a yard with just one infective cow shitting in the straw. Johnes is a difficult disease to get on top of, control possible but eradication harder. The progeny might not be infected, depends partly if dams were infective at the time of their birth. Sorry about your TB, that's even worse.

 

[supercow]

Sorry about this, I know it doesn’t help but remaining a closed herd and using more dairy semen is worth more than some realise regarding maintaining a disease free herd. Me being a softy I’d keep them and do my best but Iv thankfully never seen johnes so don’t know what johnes entails

 

[Slowcow]

Thanks, Tommy Brock still roams unchecked around here!

If the young stock can carry but not show positive does that mean they're not shedding too much?

As she is normally first to calf I think its unlikely any other calf's will have had colostrum from her, she's low cell count so her milk won't have gone to calf's.

I'm hopeful that it won't be too dire, what I don't want is a real problem in five years if I do nort now!

If we can get clear of tb again it should be easy enough to test heifers they come in, its just the infected cows daughters I'm bothered about!

I'm a softy too, she was one of my best/favorite cows!

 

[Beef farmer]

Cull the 2 cows and all offspring from them that are alive. Simples

 

[Paul E]

The harder you come down on it now, the easier it will be.

 

[Happy]

Cull the 2 cows and all offspring from them that are alive. Simples

Agree. No point in testing if you don’t.

Unlikely you will be free of it once these are gone @Slowcow either.
You really need to be testing for it annually. Doing year 16 on ours tomorrow.

 

[In the pit]

Do johnes test just before you're tb test so you get the longest gap 60 days
Biggest problem you've got is sh;t,
Are the johnes cows kept with your cows if so the sh;t can end up on non johnes cows which calve with there udders covered ,which is then suckled by the calf giving it johnes.
Best thing you can do is bring in your vet and do a johnes plan

 

[Slowcow]

Thanks everyone, I spoke to the vet about it and he said just test them as they come in, I'm minded to shift them on now tho.
Has anyone on here eradicated it? Did read it can live in the sh!t for 12 months

 

[Slowcow]

They were both isolated straight after we got the results, the one that's calved is back with the herd as I can't shift her for a couple weeks and didn't think it be fair to leave a fresh calver un milked.
Her poo isn't runny, the other one you don't want to be around when she choughs......

 

[ploughman1963]

The one that is obviously failing I would agree should go - the other one I would keep on through this lactation. As for her calves - I would not be throwing the baby out with the bathwater- pop a red tag in, breed only to beef and monitor them. If they go J5 then do not serve again just run out that lactation. Our initial reaction to quite high numbers when we started testing about 5 years ago was ‘cull all johnes cows’ but our vet persuaded us to learn to manage the risk and that strategy has served us well

 

[kill]

Get the scouring one gone very quickly as once they start losing condition it can happen very quickly.
Are you pasteurizing your milk for calves as that's meant to help when feeding calves fresh milk and it helps tick Omsco boxes re Johnes action plan?

 

[Slowcow]

Thanks for all the input,
@Happy did you have a real bad problem or have you been testing for 16 years to be accredited?

@ploughman1963 it is very tempting to keep her for a lactation on the last few milkings she's going well, just strike's me as a risk when the all others are so low, if I had 20 with it I might be thinking very differently.....
What's j5?

Any advice on interpreting the test @ 50-60 days after a tb test? I assume as the tb test lifts the percentage? Then average out the herd and anything that is higher is a risk?

Anyone on here knocked up a pasturizer for calves, neighbor's got one after a real rough tb test (30 calves from one tb high cell count cow ) it looked to me like a bucket in a bucket with some heating elements and a controller!

 

[Water Wheel]

Hi all,

After a chat with the vet we decided to blood test our dairy herd, two cows came back positive, both around 250%.



The other younger cow has been difficult to get in calf and is now going back quite fast , looks like a picture of early stages so I think the test is reliable.

Next problem is we've just gone down with tb after four or five years clear, so 60 day testing makes johnes testing difficult
Cheers

If you are milking why blood test?
Just test milk samples , we do ours 4x per year through NMR , we do not record , but it still works well, after 3 years of this you get a fair idea of which cows are moving up the scale.
We are down with tb and still manage 4 tests a year.
We started with a few high risk cows ,J5, but now have none, always a couple of J4s one high test, these we blood test, if their test history is suspicious , they are sold quickly, if they have a clear history just put them on a watch list , some single high readings appear to be spurious.

If you are closed and only have a low level of johnes , be hard and get rid quick.

 

[dinderleat]

When you mean sell them on as in straight to abattoir?

 

[dinderleat]

I suppose you don’t use milk powder because organic would be a bit pricey

 

[Slowcow]

We did a blood test as firstly I was told it was more accurate, we were coming up to a contiguous tb test with a fair few dry cows and wanted to test whole herd.

Yep if they get a high test result they be off to west Devon, no way I'm going to sell someone else a problem, knowingly anyway!

Organic milk powder £££££££
Think a pasturizer be cheaper!

 

[Sandpit Farm]

I'd be tempted to keep the one that recently calved, for this lactation, then dry her off and get some condition on her to cull. If she doesn't go back in the calving pen, there is no risk from her...... the risk comes from cows contaminated with her muck that calve in - surely if you have close ups and far offs you can get them very clean by the time they go in the close up yard.

It just seems mad to miss out on a lactation of milk when you have done all the hard work. Also, it is the stress of calving that can cause them to fade away and if she has coped well, she ought to be fine for a 9+ month lactation.

 

[Poorbuthappy]

Nobody mentioned dung sampling?
I had 3 positive at blood test- have just sent off dung samples for testing from those 3. My vet says it should show up if they are actually shedding.
They will go anyway, but if they are shedding I know I have more of a problem actually in the environment.
If you're considering holding on to any of the positives for a lactation a dung test may give you more guidance?

Agree the one losing flesh needs gone like yesterday.

 

[Water Wheel]

I'd be tempted to keep the one that recently calved, for this lactation, then dry her off and get some condition on her to cull. If she doesn't go back in the calving pen, there is no risk from her...... the risk comes from cows contaminated with her muck that calve in - surely if you have close ups and far offs you can get them very clean by the time they go in the close up yard.

It just seems mad to miss out on a lactation of milk when you have done all the hard work. Also, it is the stress of calving that can cause them to fade away and if she has coped well, she ought to be fine for a 9+ month lactation.

If hes feeding whole milk,he is probably taking milk from the tank at various times to feed to replacements .If he only has a few positive cows why take the risk?
If you have a large number you have to manage the situation.