Losing Red Diesel

[Guy Smith]

I heard this week, and it was quite categorically stated that farming will be losing red diesel. This was discussed at the same time as BPS being phased out. This wasn't a might - but very much an it is happening.

It was started by Dieter Helm who has been doing a lot of the work on Natural Capital that we are going to be able to apply for after BPS. So he tends to talk about what is happening and as such clashes with Minetter Batters and @Guy Smith a fair bit.

I see now why you weren’t at the Sustainable Food Trust event Guy! So you think we are losing red diesel then? Or is it just one of his ideas? The natural capital stuff is in the new Agriculture bill isn’t it?

A speech he did on Natural Capital:

Has anyone else heard this - its a big deal in terms of costs for farmers?

Dieter Helm wouldn't stop at taxing the diesel we use - pesticides, fertilsers, medicines would also be in his tightened tax vice on agriculture. He'd also lower or scrap inheritance tax reliefs on land aswell as scrapping support payments.

While the language around Natural Capital maybe new the proposals aren't - the NFU has been fighting such taxes proposals for years - the VI got set up to prevent a pesticides tax.

It's not difficult to counter his proposals. They would lead to one of two things - maybe both.

1. The increase in food imports and the diminution of UK farm production as we become higher cost producers and uncompetitive against foreign competition. The only way to protect against this is through tariffs

I see now why you weren’t at the Sustainable Food Trust event Guy! So you think we are losing red diesel then? Or is it just one of his ideas? The natural capital stuff is in the new Agriculture bill isn’t it?

It’s one of his ideas but fortunately he doesn’t decide tax policy but I’d accept he’s influential.

Going forward I’ve no doubt we will have to fight hard to make sure, as Clive says, we aren’t expected to take on the world with an arm tied behind our back.

As for the Ag Bill, it’s a mixed bag of many things. If it makes the statute book I don’t think it will necessarily mean the introduction of taxes on our inputs.

As for Natural Capital - let’s just say it’s proponents promote it as a science whereas I think it’s very politically loaded. Public goods is all very well and may well give farmers a key income stream but that will depend on who decides what a public good is and, more importantly what it is worth. And on the other side of the coin is Dieter Helms ‘externalised costs’ that he wants farmers to pick the bill up for. Again it will depend on who decides what these actually are.

There’s much to play for and UK farmings future is at stake. Strong political representation will be key.

Guy

PS - couldn’t make Fir Farm as had meeting in London in the morning and assurance inspection in the afternoon. The latter went better than the former!
I hear Minette did a good job.

 

[bobk]

Who's Dieter Helm ?

 

[bandit]

It isn't just farming that uses red diesel, what about construction sites, engine driven refrigeration on supermarket lorries, trains, even rail replacement bus services are allowed to use red diesel.

I think there are a lot of people who will make a fuss but if the public think it is just 'rich farmers' who are privileged to use cheap fuel then it will probably go ahead...… Then they will complain the cost of food has gone up.

Cattle down £150 a head on last year. Nothing much I can think of has dropped that dramatically

 

[james ds]

And the Chinese situation has barely rippled the UK pig price either. Something stinks.

Pig price up €0.40 / kg here since this started.

 

[Suffolk Serf]

Pig price up €0.40 / kg here since this started.

I know. And the rest of europe, just not in the UK.

 

[Chae1]

Dieter Helm wouldn't stop at taxing the diesel we use - pesticides, fertilsers, medicines would also be in his tightened tax vice on agriculture. He'd also lower or scrap inheritance tax reliefs on land aswell as scrapping support payments.

While the language around Natural Capital maybe new the proposals aren't - the NFU has been fighting such taxes proposals for years - the VI got set up to prevent a pesticides tax.

It's not difficult to counter his proposals. They would lead to one of two things - maybe both.

1. The increase in food imports and the diminution of UK farm production as we become higher cost producers and uncompetitive against foreign competition. The only way to protect against this is through tariffs



It’s one of his ideas but fortunately he doesn’t decide tax policy but I’d accept he’s influential.

Going forward I’ve no doubt we will have to fight hard to make sure, as Clive says, we aren’t expected to take on the world with an arm tied behind our back.

As for the Ag Bill, it’s a mixed bag of many things. If it makes the statute book I don’t think it will necessarily mean the introduction of taxes on our inputs.

As for Natural Capital - let’s just say it’s proponents promote it as a science whereas I think it’s very politically loaded. Public goods is all very well and may well give farmers a key income stream but that will depend on who decides what a public good is and, more importantly what it is worth. And on the other side of the coin is Dieter Helms ‘externalised costs’ that he wants farmers to pick the bill up for. Again it will depend on who decides what these actually are.

There’s much to play for and UK farmings future is at stake. Strong political representation will be key.

Guy

PS - couldn’t make Fir Farm as had meeting in London in the morning and assurance inspection in the afternoon. The latter went better than the former!
I hear Minette did a good job.

While your here!

Are the NFU aware of the current issues facing the UK beef industry ?

 

[Guy Smith]

While your here!

Are the NFU aware of the current issues facing the UK beef industry ?

Very aware. I’m a beef farmer myself.

Are you aware we don’t claim to represent Scottish farmers. Are you a member of the NFUS?

 

[wanton dwarf]

Going forward I’ve no doubt we will have to fight hard to make sure, as Clive says, we aren’t expected to take on the world with an arm tied behind our back.

As for the Ag Bill, it’s a mixed bag of many things. If it makes the statute book I don’t think it will necessarily mean the introduction of taxes on our inputs.

As for Natural Capital - let’s just say it’s proponents promote it as a science whereas I think it’s very politically loaded. Public goods is all very well and may well give farmers a key income stream but that will depend on who decides what a public good is and, more importantly what it is worth. And on the other side of the coin is Dieter Helms ‘externalised costs’ that he wants farmers to pick the bill up for. Again it will depend on who decides what these actually are.

What is the feeling within the farming community ?

So a few bureascrats who are not dependant on farming are going to be allowed to destroy an industry ?

Are all farmers so weak ?

You should be using politics against the Conservative Party .. get connections with the Brexit Party and start organising a counter campaign .. using farmers hedgerows to promote the politics YOU want.

Get organised.

 

[Chae1]

Very aware. I’m a beef farmer myself.

Are you aware we don’t claim to represent Scottish farmers. Are you a member of the NFUS?

Yes.

No i wasn't aware you didn't represent Scottish farmers

 

[Guy Smith]

For clarity the NFU of England&Wales and the Scottish National Farmers Union are completely separate organisations. We respect each other's turf but there are some farmers who farm in both. The two organisations also regularly meet up to compare notes and we put out joint position statements.

 

[A H N]

Yes.

No i wasn't aware you didn't represent Scottish farmers

That’s the biggest problem the NFU, whether England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland should all get together with matters like this and maybe they would get something done. Then they might find they would get more members.

 

[Chae1]

That’s the biggest problem the NFU, whether England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland should all get together with matters like this and maybe they would get something done. Then they might find they would get more members.

Just like us farmers all divided. Blame someone else.

The powers that be will like it that way though.

We're bound to see farmer action in the next few weeks. There's some very angry farmers about at the moment

 

[Guy Smith]

Where UK positions are needed we have a good record of coming together to establish a common position. And we share one office in Brussels and act as one organisation there.

But with devolution within the UK I think having separate organisations makes sense as well.

 

[Simon Chiles]

@Chris F This is, I suspect, very old news that’s just been re hashed. It was proposed in the government’s consultation on restricting the fraudulent use of red diesel. As has already been stated I suggested that rural crime would dramatically increase because at least at the moment if some caravan dwelling nomad nicks your red he can still be prosecuted for using it for weeks after the event. If farmers had to use white you’d have to actually catch them helping themselves, after that there’s no evidence against them.
Secondly, as a law abiding citizen, I don’t put red into any of my cars. However, how tempting would it be to fill up with white from the farm tank that you’d claimed a rebate on when you knew you couldn’t be caught? I suggested the fraudulent use of rebated fuel would dramatically escalate.
Don’t forget that the Road Haulage Association would also oppose strongly to farmers having rebated white diesel because they ( farmers) would then be able to complete unfairly on haulage operations. How would HMRC decide how much fuel you could claim a rebate on? What if I direct drilled a couple of thousand acres and claimed I was ploughing it all. I’d have enough rebated fuel left to run a truck on at very competitive rates. Finally, how do you think the locals would react when, in leafy Surrey, I pulled into the fuel station at 8.30 in the morning ( when they’re all trying to get to work ) and stuck 800 litres in the combine.
To be fair to @Guy Smith this is the sort of thing that the NFU, NAAC etc. do behind the scenes all the time ( whether you’ve paid your sub or not ) to represent the industry. It never gets noticed or mentioned because it just happens.

 

[puntabrava]

The biggest problem would be the theft of road diesel from tanks and machines , it wouldn't be possible to keep it safe .

I can see land rent doubling, as I person with three lorry’s I foresee benefits. My no till will be of the highest quality.

 

[Chris F]

@Chris F This is, I suspect, very old news that’s just been re hashed. It was proposed in the government’s consultation on restricting the fraudulent use of red diesel. As has already been stated I suggested that rural crime would dramatically increase because at least at the moment if some caravan dwelling nomad nicks your red he can still be prosecuted for using it for weeks after the event. If farmers had to use white you’d have to actually catch them helping themselves, after that there’s no evidence against them.
Secondly, as a law abiding citizen, I don’t put red into any of my cars. However, how tempting would it be to fill up with white from the farm tank that you’d claimed a rebate on when you knew you couldn’t be caught? I suggested the fraudulent use of rebated fuel would dramatically escalate.
Don’t forget that the Road Haulage Association would also oppose strongly to farmers having rebated white diesel because they ( farmers) would then be able to complete unfairly on haulage operations. How would HMRC decide how much fuel you could claim a rebate on? What if I direct drilled a couple of thousand acres and claimed I was ploughing it all. I’d have enough rebated fuel left to run a truck on at very competitive rates. Finally, how do you think the locals would react when, in leafy Surrey, I pulled into the fuel station at 8.30 in the morning ( when they’re all trying to get to work ) and stuck 800 litres in the combine.
To be fair to @Guy Smith this is the sort of thing that the NFU, NAAC etc. do behind the scenes all the time ( whether you’ve paid your sub or not ) to represent the industry. It never gets noticed or mentioned because it just happens.

Simon, this isn't old news as it was stated just this week in the same breath as the New Ag Bill. While I too hope it wouldn't happen the new Ag Bill will throw a lot in the air and the NFU seem to have an uphill task here to fight our corner. As you say, a lot of this never gets mentioned and as @Guy Smith has already said, it seems to be in Dieter's nature to push against farming.

 

[Cheesehead]

Simon, this isn't old news as it was stated just this week in the same breath as the New Ag Bill. While I too hope it wouldn't happen the new Ag Bill will throw a lot in the air and the NFU seem to have an uphill task here to fight our corner. As you say, a lot of this never gets mentioned and as @Guy Smith has already said, it seems to be in Dieter's nature to push against farming.

I wonder if there is some sour milk in the family as it sounds familiar

 

[Cowabunga]

It can happen. I've heard reports that the retail price of pork has recently DOUBLED in china, owing to their African Swine Fever crisis.
The point about the tax on DERV is surely that the tax helps maintain the roads (laughably) and that red diesel is largely used off road, just the rules get bent a bit too much sometimes.

That's because they have a shortage of product. Farmers are daft enough in the UK to ensure that doesn't happen and most food products can be imported cheaply anyhow.
The reason they tax road fuel is the same reason that they tax anything. It is to raise revenue for grossly inefficient feather-bedded public services. Because they can.

 

[Exfarmer]

What is the feeling within the farming community ?

So a few bureascrats who are not dependant on farming are going to be allowed to destroy an industry ?

Are all farmers so weak ?

You should be using politics against the Conservative Party .. get connections with the Brexit Party and start organising a counter campaign .. using farmers hedgerows to promote the politics YOU want.

Get organised.

Except of course the Brexit party are 100% in favour of free imports, they are no friends of farmers!

 

[Suffolk Serf]

That's because they have a shortage of product. Farmers are daft enough in the UK to ensure that doesn't happen and most food products can be imported cheaply anyhow.
The reason they tax road fuel is the same reason that they tax anything. It is to raise revenue for grossly inefficient feather-bedded public services. Because they can.

The world price of pork is well above the UK price at the moment and were only 60% self sufficient. The trouble is there are only three major processors. The price will rise at some point but it has already been too late for some sadly.
I agree with you re taxes.