Massey Ferguson 698 Spool valves problem

[MFrolling]

Hi, we have MasseyFerguson 698 for 15 years , good tractor and have done loads of work with it. The spool valves have started giving trouble, it may or may not relate back to time when a big load of stone was put in e 3 link power box by a mini digger, but not sure. The problem shows its self in the serious way if after doing a like an hours hard work like mowing or moving bails for a number of hours, with one of the pipes (high up one) at the back end going to the spool box is pulsating and making surging noises and is very very hot. When tractor starts this does not happen and it is hard to pin point what is exactly triggering it or after how long it starts pulsating but at a guess say after an hour. Also the problem shows its self if the lever for the normal pump on the right hand side in the cab is down the spools mainly don't work but that said some times they do but infrequently. The spools always work when this lever is up and using the auxiliary pump, we brought tractor to mechanic at a busy time of the year and he was able to show us the trick of using the auxiliary pump and it got it going at that time we did not know anything about the auxiliary pump as we have basic enough mechanical knowledge. The mechanic looked around and said took off side panel to hydraulics but did little enough investigation that time permitted.Before we went to mechanic he advised to change hydraulic filter which my brother done, it was his first time doing it and he put back in the same oil, have to say i am not convinced if the job was done in a very clean way as I was no here in case dirt may be a factor and wondering should we repeat taking out the oil and even checking the filter and seeing if there is any more dirt in it? and possibly strain the oil some way to make sure its clean. We are planning on going back to the mechanic and the next step is more invasive work on the hydraulics which is likely to be expensive and my feeling we may be looking for a needle in a haystack. The mechanic tried the pressure with a gauge and said very good around 3500 on the pipes with auxiliary pump and lift ars are working ok. We can work ok by using the auxiliary pump as not a lot of work done with tractor till summer time, but we have been warned that the oil being very warm might cause bigger problem with seals etc and cause bigger problems, any help or direction would be appreciated.

 

[GHuggins]

I just got through fixing "a like" problem on a 4355 where my pump was whining all of the time and the loader valve was sticking really bad on initial startup. BUT mine would get hot and start working easier even though pump whine got louder. Tractor had apparently had travelers hydraulic fluid installed as it was very red in color and the Nimco loader valve wasn't flowing correctly. I installed a new different brand valve assembly, changed fluid back to permatran and massey filters - filters weren't dirty, but there were chunks of sludge or junk in the base of the tranny that drained out - added a couple of limited slip additive tubes - Loader works very easily now no matter the temperature, no pump whine and even shuttle clutch works better. I'll most likely change fluid again next winter to help clean junk out after putting some hrs on it.

Now with that being said, same junk fluid in a 285 massey, having lots of loader and hydraulic problems and was used like yours lifting way over it's limit by our cousin while we weren't around on the loader then all of a sudden had these issues. I haven't even attempted fixing this one yet as it's just a trailer moving tractor now and used for minor pallet fork use, however I know the seals are blown internally on one of the lift cylinders on the loader now causing a lot of it's problems... Not sure if that's what you might actually have going on? Possibly an Oring seal blown out restricting a port or something?

Hard to tell on hydraulics without tearing a lot of things apart and doing "exploratory surgery" unfortunately. Too many separate valves, cylinders hoses and pumps in the equation to just say "this" is the problem...

 

[Speedstar]

Hi, we have MasseyFerguson 698 for 15 years , good tractor and have done loads of work with it. The spool valves have started giving trouble, it may or may not relate back to time when a big load of stone was put in e 3 link power box by a mini digger, but not sure. The problem shows its self in the serious way if after doing a like an hours hard work like mowing or moving bails for a number of hours, with one of the pipes (high up one) at the back end going to the spool box is pulsating and making surging noises and is very very hot. When tractor starts this does not happen and it is hard to pin point what is exactly triggering it or after how long it starts pulsating but at a guess say after an hour. Also the problem shows its self if the lever for the normal pump on the right hand side in the cab is down the spools mainly don't work but that said some times they do but infrequently. The spools always work when this lever is up and using the auxiliary pump, we brought tractor to mechanic at a busy time of the year and he was able to show us the trick of using the auxiliary pump and it got it going at that time we did not know anything about the auxiliary pump as we have basic enough mechanical knowledge. The mechanic looked around and said took off side panel to hydraulics but did little enough investigation that time permitted.Before we went to mechanic he advised to change hydraulic filter which my brother done, it was his first time doing it and he put back in the same oil, have to say i am not convinced if the job was done in a very clean way as I was no here in case dirt may be a factor and wondering should we repeat taking out the oil and even checking the filter and seeing if there is any more dirt in it? and possibly strain the oil some way to make sure its clean. We are planning on going back to the mechanic and the next step is more invasive work on the hydraulics which is likely to be expensive and my feeling we may be looking for a needle in a haystack. The mechanic tried the pressure with a gauge and said very good around 3500 on the pipes with auxiliary pump and lift ars are working ok. We can work ok by using the auxiliary pump as not a lot of work done with tractor till summer time, but we have been warned that the oil being very warm might cause bigger problem with seals etc and cause bigger problems, any help or direction would be appreciated.

Have you got the 3 point linkage lever in constant pumping this will make the back end oil hot , we all ways used the little aux lever to tip the trailers etc using the spools

 

[MFrolling]

Thanks GHuggins and Speedstar for suggestions.
Re GHuggins comments - I have a notion to empty out the oil one more time and possibly put in new oil - effectively one and half drums , maybe for a change i might try a different brand hydraulic oil, as one used would be towards budget end but was from reputable supplier but oil could be a few years oil . At this stage of year tractor not being worked hard so hard to find the surging starting in the pipe as tractor not being worked in the field. Problem is that when tractor is under pressure the mechanic has no time to deal with it in the summer and it might be a hard found fault . However pulsating pipe and too hot of pipes as told to me by others with a better idea, it might be as well to bite the bullet to go the mechanic who next step is to open back end or possibly he may be able to adjust some of the pipes at the back end to take the pressure off the system - the mechanic said it is not too difficult on this model of tractor to open out the hydraulics but it I suspect things could get very costly.

Speedstar- when auxiliary pump is working it is on constant pump as it only works when lift leaver is up fully but as spools are on used briefly when tilting power box it not explain the problem like it getting very hot when mowing when in regular pump. The lift arms work with the regular pump and when I was moving bails and mowing it would not have been on constant pump as I would not have had the lift arms not fully lifted. Thanks

 

[Cowabunga]

You do know that straight 'hydraulic oil' is not the correct fluid for this tractor's gearbox/transaxle? It must have a UTTO or SUTO type oil.
Most likely cause of oil heating is a pump constantly pumping against a dead end, causing its relief valve to blow. This tractor has two main pumps, one the scotch-yolk piston linkage pump and the other a gear-type auxilliary pump. There should be a combining valve with a diverter that is manually engaged by the driver to put the linkage pump into constant pumping, freezing the rear links at the top, and combining oil flow from both pumps into one. The most likely cause of blowing the relief valve is when the linkage pump is in 'constant pumping' without anywhere for the oil to go or being 'combined' with the auxilliary flow.

 

[MFrolling]

Thanks GHuggins and Speedstar for suggestions.
Re GHuggins comments - I have a notion to empty out the oil one more time and possibly put in new oil - effectively one and half drums , maybe for a change i might try a different brand hydraulic oil, as one used would be towards budget end but was from reputable supplier but oil could be a few years oil . At this stage of year tractor not being worked hard so hard to find the surging starting in the pipe as tractor not being worked in the field. Problem is that when tractor is under pressure the mechanic has no time to deal with it in the summer and it might be a hard found fault . However pulsating pipe and too hot of pipes as told to me by others with a better idea, it might be as well to bite the bullet to go the mechanic who next step is to open back end or possibly he may be able to adjust some of the pipes at the back end to take the pressure off the system - the mechanic said it is not too difficult on this model of tractor to open out the hydraulics but it I suspect things could get very costly.

Speedstar- when auxiliary pump is working it is on constant pump as it only works when lift leaver is up fully but as spools are on used briefly when tilting power box it not explain the problem like it getting very hot when mowing when in regular pump. The lift arms work with the regular pump and when I was moving bails and mowing it would not have been on constant pump as I would not have had the lift arms not fully lifted.

 

[Two Tone]

The lever on the RHS of the cab near the ashtray combines both the linkage and spool pumps to give more flow and pressure to the spools. When it does this it also locks the linkage.
If you don’t need high pressure or flow for the spools, the leave it in the lower position.
Make sure the 3 point linkage quadrant isn’t in the Constant pumping position. You well never need this.
It could be that either the 3 point linkage or auxiliary (spools) pump are on their way out.

 

[MFrolling]

You do know that straight 'hydraulic oil' is not the correct fluid for this tractor's gearbox/transaxle? It must have a UTTO or SUTO type oil.
Most likely cause of oil heating is a pump constantly pumping against a dead end, causing its relief valve to blow. This tractor has two main pumps, one the scotch-yolk piston linkage pump and the other a gear-type auxilliary pump. There should be a combining valve with a diverter that is manually engaged by the driver to put the linkage pump into constant pumping, freezing the rear links at the top, and combining oil flow from both pumps into one. The most likely cause of blowing the relief valve is when the linkage pump is in 'constant pumping' without anywhere for the oil to go or being 'combined' with the auxilliary flow.

Hi Cowabunga , thanks for reply, just checked it was the right oil used SUTO and from the dip stick it looks like new, would the big load on the transport box have collapsed a valve and created a dead end for oil , and what would be best way of checking that out, would it be idea to check out with a hydraulics specialist that do a lot of digger hydraulics as would they be best tooled up to find where the fault is and then if pin pointed a bit more to go back to mechanic if the back end needs to be opened up, there are mobile units called hose doctors that fix hydraulic pipes and they might have some good diagnostic equipment as well

 

[MFrolling]

The lever on the RHS of the cab near the ashtray combines both the linkage and spool pumps to give more flow and pressure to the spools. When it does this it also locks the linkage.
If you don’t need high pressure or flow for the spools, the leave it in the lower position.
Make sure the 3 point linkage quadrant isn’t in the Constant pumping position. You well never need this.
It could be that either the 3 point linkage or auxiliary (spools) pump are on their way out.

Thanks Two tone , the spools were only working whe we put that lever up to combine the pumps, funny enough it worked intermittently on a seldom time with that lever down and then would stop working, I might of thought wrong that needed lift lever at full height to get spools working when using aux pump but I will try it with the lift lever lower down to take pressure off the system, however as when not in aux pump and working hard with like a mower the system is pulsating, so like Cowabunga post I think I have a dead end and thing to do now is to to track it down as this is were the system will be working for hours under pressure and likely to do harm.

 

[Cowabunga]

Hi Cowabunga , thanks for reply, just checked it was the right oil used SUTO and from the dip stick it looks like new, would the big load on the transport box have collapsed a valve and created a dead end for oil , and what would be best way of checking that out, would it be idea to check out with a hydraulics specialist that do a lot of digger hydraulics as would they be best tooled up to find where the fault is and then if pin pointed a bit more to go back to mechanic if the back end needs to be opened up, there are mobile units called hose doctors that fix hydraulic pipes and they might have some good diagnostic equipment as well

Big load on the linkage usually just causes a knocking sound and a failure to lift the load in extremis.
These are essentially relatively simple tractors with more complex hydraulics, but only because it has the old Ferguson type pump for the linkage and a seperate gear pump for auxiliary flow and for the PTO which can be combined to a high flow for the spool valves.
There should be no dead end unless you have the linkage pump in the 'constant pumping' area of the linkage control quadrant with no diversion from the three point hitch ram for the oil to flow, such as to a trailer through a tipping pipe that is not connected to a spool but connected to the diverter or to an union on the chassis to the same oil gallery. Sounds complicated but it is not.
If it is the linkage pump that is pumping to a dead end, as you suspect, then is will knock noticeably and you will easily hear it doing so. If it is the auxiliary pump, then there could be something wrong with the setting of the diverter valve, MF call a 'selector valve' on top front left of the hydraulic lift cover.

Nobody can tell without physically examining the tractor. Get it washed sparkling clean under the cab and get an experienced MF mechanic to test it for you. Over the internet diagnosis is pure guesswork.

 

[Two Tone]

Big load on the linkage usually just causes a knocking sound and a failure to lift the load in extremis.
These are essentially relatively simple tractors with more complex hydraulics, but only because it has the old Ferguson type pump for the linkage and a seperate gear pump for auxiliary flow and for the PTO which can be combined to a high flow for the spool valves.
There should be no dead end unless you have the linkage pump in the 'constant pumping' area of the linkage control quadrant with no diversion from the three point hitch ram for the oil to flow, such as to a trailer through a tipping pipe that is not connected to a spool but connected to the diverter or to an union on the chassis to the same oil gallery. Sounds complicated but it is not.
If it is the linkage pump that is pumping to a dead end, as you suspect, then is will knock noticeably and you will easily hear it doing so. If it is the auxiliary pump, then there could be something wrong with the setting of the diverter valve, MF call a 'selector valve' on top front left of the hydraulic lift cover.

Nobody can tell without physically examining the tractor. Get it washed sparkling clean under the cab and get an experienced MF mechanic to test it for you. Over the internet diagnosis is pure guesswork.

Bang on!
Because they have a separate pump for the auxiliaries, they ought to have done away with the constant pump bit on the Quadrant for the linkage.
And unless you had a hydraulic baler press, done away with the pressure control too!
Did they not do this on the 300 series anyway?
I reckon that over use in the pressure and/or constant pumping pump may have damaged it.

 

[MF-ANDY]

Bang on!
Because they have a separate pump for the auxiliaries, they ought to have done away with the constant pump bit on the Quadrant for the linkage.
And unless you had a hydraulic baler press, done away with the pressure control too!
Did they not do this on the 300 series anyway?
I reckon that over use in the pressure and/or constant pumping pump may have damaged it.

Yes they did do away with pressure control but as some basic spec ones dont have spools you still need constant pumping to get an external service and you also need that extra bit of lift height to trip the pick up hitch.

 

[MFrolling]

Big load on the linkage usually just causes a knocking sound and a failure to lift the load in extremis.
These are essentially relatively simple tractors with more complex hydraulics, but only because it has the old Ferguson type pump for the linkage and a seperate gear pump for auxiliary flow and for the PTO which can be combined to a high flow for the spool valves.
There should be no dead end unless you have the linkage pump in the 'constant pumping' area of the linkage control quadrant with no diversion from the three point hitch ram for the oil to flow, such as to a trailer through a tipping pipe that is not connected to a spool but connected to the diverter or to an union on the chassis to the same oil gallery. Sounds complicated but it is not.
If it is the linkage pump that is pumping to a dead end, as you suspect, then is will knock noticeably and you will easily hear it doing so. If it is the auxiliary pump, then there could be something wrong with the setting of the diverter valve, MF call a 'selector valve' on top front left of the hydraulic lift cover.

Nobody can tell without physically examining the tractor. Get it washed sparkling clean under the cab and get an experienced MF mechanic to test it for you. Over the internet diagnosis is pure guesswork.

Thank you for all the information , there are there is no knocking and it is lifting fine with good loads, just found out today from a test on a ram on a frame with no weight on it that it is not allowing the ram to go up and down, as I arrange it on the spools it will go up and then I have to rearrange the spools to go down , I thought the problem was with the ram but the ram worked perfectly on another tractor - just another thing I will let the mechanic know I tried, I will let you know how I get on, but I guess it will be a number of weeks before it pans out.

Big load on the linkage usually just causes a knocking sound and a failure to lift the load in extremis.
These are essentially relatively simple tractors with more complex hydraulics, but only because it has the old Ferguson type pump for the linkage and a seperate gear pump for auxiliary flow and for the PTO which can be combined to a high flow for the spool valves.
There should be no dead end unless you have the linkage pump in the 'constant pumping' area of the linkage control quadrant with no diversion from the three point hitch ram for the oil to flow, such as to a trailer through a tipping pipe that is not connected to a spool but connected to the diverter or to an union on the chassis to the same oil gallery. Sounds complicated but it is not.
If it is the linkage pump that is pumping to a dead end, as you suspect, then is will knock noticeably and you will easily hear it doing so. If it is the auxiliary pump, then there could be something wrong with the setting of the diverter valve, MF call a 'selector valve' on top front left of the hydraulic lift cover.

Nobody can tell without physically examining the tractor. Get it washed sparkling clean under the cab and get an experienced MF mechanic to test it for you. Over the internet diagnosis is pure guesswork.

Thanks Cowabunga for info , we were in touch with mechanic today and with the slow up with delays with Covid, it will be 4 weeks before he can look at it, but at least I have made contact. I tried a bail splitter on the spools today even using the auxilary pump, it will only allot the ram to move one way and to get the ram to return I had to rearrange the pipes in to the spools, so it is not working on it. I understand it needs to get to the mechanic to figure out whats going wrong and I will clean it up well before going to him, all the best.

 

[MFrolling]

Yes they did do away with pressure control but as some basic spec ones dont have spools you still need constant pumping to get an external service and you also need that extra bit of lift height to trip the pick up hitch.

Thanks for your iTwo tone for your input on the problem

 

[MFrolling]

Thanks for your iTwo tone for your input on the problem

Hi , I am thinking of getting hold of an endoscope to look inside the hydraulics before going all out opening the back end even to have it done for the mechanic and wondering do you know a good place to put in the 8mm camera to take a look around . Any tips appreciated

 

[MFrolling]

Thank you for all the information , there are there is no knocking and it is lifting fine with good loads, just found out today from a test on a ram on a frame with no weight on it that it is not allowing the ram to go up and down, as I arrange it on the spools it will go up and then I have to rearrange the spools to go down , I thought the problem was with the ram but the ram worked perfectly on another tractor - just another thing I will let the mechanic know I tried, I will let you know how I get on, but I guess it will be a number of weeks before it pans out.

Thanks Cowabunga for info , we were in touch with mechanic today and with the slow up with delays with Covid, it will be 4 weeks before he can look at it, but at least I have made contact. I tried a bail splitter on the spools today even using the auxilary pump, it will only allot the ram to move one way and to get the ram to return I had to rearrange the pipes in to the spools, so it is not working on it. I understand it needs to get to the mechanic to figure out whats going wrong and I will clean it up well before going to him, all the best.

Hi any tips where to access the hydraulics with an endoscope to get a look inside, the hydraulics would around the dip stick have a plate or nut that could give good access to see if anything would show up before doing all the opening of the back end

 

[Cowabunga]

There is a big plate bolted on where the dipstick enters the gearbox if I remember correctly. It probably also has the linkage for the response [drop speed] control. Not sure whether removing that is practical for you, but if you do, make sure the oil level is below the hole before unbolting it.

Quite frankly I think you will be wasting your time. Stuff is crammed into the back end and unless you know exactly how things should be, you will be none the wiser even if a fault stares you in the face. Regardless, you will need to strip it down after the mechanic tests pressure and flow and the linkage control external adjustments. On tractors up to 100 series, all adjustments were internal anyway.

Give me electronic linkage control any day, where everything is accessible externally.

 

[MFrolling]

Thank you Cowabunga for the info and help with it, if I ever get it sorted I will let you know

 

[Paaaly]

read the above, and still stratching my head... use a 698 spool only when on forage wagon, had exactly same issue last year, and cannot recall what i did, but not aware of anything (last year having been changed, or this to create, so a bid of a oddity that someone may have come across before).

spool / hose all connected correctly,
not in constant pump
when move leaver can hear pump working
but does not have affect / no movement at ram (only small one to lift tines)
tried the lift arms / both pumps/flow lever

what am i mising, as said did this initially when connected up last year.. then got it to work, but cannot recall what did... worked perflectly, not changed anything and connected it but need do what ever did last time... definietly tractor setting but what have i done wrong...

any ideas?

many thanks

 

[Cowabunga]

One basic check that should be the first when a spool valve isn’t working is to carefully examine and test the QR couplings, both male and female. They can jam and restrict flow and if a constant flow is needed then this will cause the relief valve to blow and heat the oil.