Medicine costs

[yellowbelly]

Excuse the lack of knowledge here but are vets happy to write prescriptions that you can use elsewhere ?

I don't know if they're 'happy' or not but as far as I understand it, they can't refuse you a prescription. The thing is, they can charge you what they like for it (the last one we had cost £15 inc vat)
Our vet will only put one drug on one prescription. So if you only want, say one bottle of Penstrep and one bottle of Alamycin, to have in the lambing shed, the £30 is more than any saving you are going to make by buying online

do they then charge more for the prescription if you say you are going to shop around for the products ?

You don't know - if they supply the drugs you don't get invoiced for a prescription

 

[Clive]

So you pay for the advice (call out) and the prescription ?

sounds a bit like a cake and eating it scenario to me !

From what I understand not all the product on Farm marketplace needs a written prescription, details are here re the process

https://www.marketplace.farm/Prescription-Guide

This bit seems to be the relevant part

Why do some medicines require a prescription and others don't?

This is a legal classification for veterinary products. Some veterinary medications are classified as POM-V (prescription only medicine). These can only be supplied under a veterinary prescription. These products may be dangerous if used incorrectly. Other products are classed as POM-VPS, these products can be sold after discussion with a SQP (Suitably Qualified Person) The SQP must be satisfied that you know enough about the product before you purchase it.

 

[beefandsleep]

It’s always been a puzzle to me why most vaccines are POM-V, although some are not. Why is that? They are probably the bulk of my medical spend and significant savings are there to be made.

 

[matthew]

Our veterinary practise, where we've have really good relationship for 30 years, has changed its business model.
The senior vets have parted with one retiring and the new chap more dog than cattle orientated.

We never see the original partner these days and have had very mixed 'service' from newbie vets who have not got the experience to cope with events that we cannot. But our main gripe is availability of meds when we need them. The answer is always, 'we can order it for you - collect tomorrow'. And this for basics like Alamycin Betamox LA , Zactran and pain relief.

The last visit, the young vet came ill prepared with 7ml of metacam (not the bottle I'd requested) and no antibiotics. (Steer with a cut tongue - couldn't eat / drink)

I have never queried price of their meds, until this last bill when Metacam was charged at £144. 60 plus VAT for the bottle I collected two days after the visit, and Betamox LA to replace ours at £34 plus VAT.

We use another practise for bull fertility testing and so are also registered with them. They supply Betamox at £25 and Metacam at £86. So on that one bill, on two items, we faced an uplift of £70. And we'd done most of the vet works ourselves. and if we hadn't been able to collect from somewhere, over bad weather and bank holidays this animal may not have survived. I needed Zactran on a Saturday - not available. Twin lamb drench at 5.30 in the evening - not available. This all within the last two weeks.

I hear what you're saying @bovine and two years ago would have agreed with you. But our vet has changed his business model to 'no stocks' on the shelf - even for vets on farm and is sending us vets who would rather be trimming budgie's toe nails and weighing overweight dogs. So reluctantly we are changing to the other practise.

 

[Chris F]

I see it as a shame as farm vet practices are been shafted from all sides, but it's your forum.

I think I might stop giving away free advice though.

You place an interesting slant on this. The forum is simply a vehicle to find out information and you, as you say, are part of that. The ability to find out what things cost is also part of that. You seem less keen on the latter part. But working on the assumption that the people on the internet aren't selling at a loss and some of those companies selling are vets themselves, why are the prices not just the prices. Ie are the vets not being charged consistent prices from the manufacturers? That is, why can one vets be happy to sell at one price, but if that price is made public then its "shafting" you? Which to me sounds like you would make a loss selling at that price?

My vets always supplied my prescriptions and meds on my farm, but then I didn't have a lot of livestock. Looking at meds for TFF and Farm Marketplace, a bit like the crop protection products, opens your eyes to another part of the industry.

 

[yellowbelly]

are the vets not being charged consistent prices from the manufacturers?

I'm sure all vets don't/can't buy at the same price - bigger ones obviously get economies of scale and, as far as I understand it, they buy mainly through wholesalers and not directly from the manufacturers and will have varying terms etc.

 

[Filthyfarmer]

I'm sure all vets don't/can't buy at the same price - bigger ones obviously get economies of scale and, as far as I understand it, they buy mainly through wholesalers and not directly from the manufacturers and will have varying terms etc.

Your spot on there, my vet is very understanding and lets me buy off the net for drugs. They cannot get anywhere near the price, usually 1/2 to 2/3rds more on AB's. Oxytocin was about the same because the £30 refrigerated postage evened it out on 2 bottles.
Ours cannot buy it as cheaply as I can.

 

[yellowbelly]

Ours cannot buy it as cheaply as I can.

Ours is the same.
Which simply begs the question, "Why don't they buy it off the internet?"

 

[Chris F]

I'm sure all vets don't/can't buy at the same price - bigger ones obviously get economies of scale and, as far as I understand it, they buy mainly through wholesalers and not directly from the manufacturers and will have varying terms etc.

But even if the wholesalers are the ones selling online. And I’m not sure they are. There should be no way an individual farmer has more buying power than a vets. It all sounds a right mess.

 

[Farmeress]

How much does your vet charge you for the script? Never bought online or asked the question of the vet.

HI ya .. I was charged £20 for script - even with that - it was still cheaper than they could sell it. I also bought dosing stuff from www.farmvetsupplies.com and didn't need a prescription for that - just had to answer a few questions. I'll definitely be using them again - very handy to be able to place my order at night, at home and get delivered to my door as I also have a full time job and wouldn't always be able to make it to my vets before they close.

 

[perthshire-farmer]

We had to change vet practice last year too.
New one offers quite a sizeable discount on meds if you pay on the day of collection.
Could it be that your vet does this too and no one has told you?

Bought 40 doses of Rotovec corona from Davidsons & 40 from the vet the other week. Not had the invoices yet but told by lady at vets reception there was 35% discount on that one so will be interesting to see what the difference is.

Would gladly buy more vet & med stuff through vet rather than merchant if they were competitive on price but last couple of practices weren't interested in farm animal work and gave up on it.

Did you find out what the better deal was? Do a fair bit with Davidsons but now using EoSF & Carrs more. DVS seem to be upping prices of late

 

[Happy]

Did you find out what the better deal was? Do a fair bit with Davidsons but now using EoSF & Carrs more. DVS seem to be upping prices of late

Yes

Got both invoices on the Rotovec now.
Local Ag-Merchant Davidson's was £8/dose. Vet was £8.60.

 

[Hampton]

It's a tricky one. 7 years of vet school and 24 hour service has to be worth a premium, however we all have to make a living.
In my view a good compromise would be competitive priced vaccines and pop in antibiotics (Ie pop in to fetch a bottle when you need it) but charge a bit more on out of hours call outs and a higher margin on drugs that the vet puts in the animal (if the vet jabs the beast then the drugs cost 10% more).
I see this as a sensible compromise.

 

[Doc]

It astounds me that prescription medicine prices are an issue for livestock producers.
It implies that the perception is that a Vet is only as good as his/her price for product X. Seems if it isn’t, and we are usually talking small differences of £5-10 per 100ml, then up sticks and find another.
Never mind the other parts of the service package.
Drugs are classified as ‘prescription only’ for reasons that I don’t think any have considered on here. There is a responsibility and legal obligation attached to prescribing biologically active substances which affect both human and animal physiology.
It protects society to have a responsible and knowledgeable person to make decisions about the appropriateness of any prescription only treatment. It’s why there are legal checks and balances.
Because your human meds are provided ‘free’ on the NHS you don’t see the cost individually, just the consequences of their cost as lack of money left over for Nurses and GPs. Each NHS prescription and drug costs the tax payer significantly more per dose for the same drug than what you pay the vet on a KG/body weight basis - the drug, the GP, the pharmacist, the delivery people, and all the hangers on along the way etc.
Is it sensible for you to make prescribing decisions when your kids are ill because it’s expensive? If not, then why is it sensible for you to make them otherwise?
Simply, it’s not.
It why you can’t self prescribe for yourself, family or indeed the animals under your care.
Give your Vets a break here, if you can’t afford the meds, stop keeping the stock. If there are ‘welfare’ issues it’s not because of £10-15 a bottle it’s because your system is shite.
Maybe ask your Vet for free advice how you can improve it over the phone, or better pay him/her to come have a look, maybe you don’t need the Zactran but better management.
Tin hat on.

 

[matthew]

Grab that tin hat.

I needed Zactran for a pedigree calf with a slight temp and the beginnings of pneumonia. It works here. Resflor does not. We’ve used it just twice this winter.

I do appreciate veterinary back up. When I can get it.
I don’t appreciate, as I said, lack of availability and an uplift of £70 on just two items. And that is not uplift from internet prices but another vet practise.

Final straw this morning, a letter from XL telling us that ‘our’ practise is no longer doing Government.uk veterinary work at all.
After 30 years, Nice of them to tell us, we thought.

 

[Doc]

I’ll have a brief go.
What’s causing the pneumonia?
Viral, mycoplasma, bacteria, mixed? Why are they getting it? How old are they? What’s the mix of other stock sharing the air space? Is there a genetic/phenotypic issue? What is the shed design? How are they penned?
Why is it only Zactran that seems to work? Resflor is a different group of ABs but there are many others, and cheaper.
So many things to think about.
Your Vets are wise. The TB testing contract was a race to the bottom. XL farmcare won-They were the bottom tender. All sensible practices thought if we lose money on TB testing, we will have to put our drug prices up! I’m sure it will go well for them with you but it hasn’t around here. Cheap Vets doing a cheap job. They are looking to make margin on the big herds and take the loss of the small ones on the chin in the hope they will get some more clients to sell drugs and services to. Loss leader if you like but the model success relies on the big herds. No surprise here that the senior partners turn up for the big tests of other practice clients but they send the Poles to the mid/small ones.
TB is not going to be solved by reducing the investment...

 

[matthew]

Pneumonia was in the pedigree Bull calf last autumn.
Age - 7 months.
Outside. Not in sheds. Suckling Mum and growing well.
Weather related. Warm, wet, fog then very cold. One affected in a group of around 20.
I can’t say why ?Zactran works here. I only know, from experience, that our very occasional use of Resflor has not been effective. No objection to a generic, if offered.

Pneumonia is rare here. Only the second case in three years.

I’ve no problem with our vets throwing in the towel on gov. TB testing. But felt sad that they didn’t feel able to inform clients before XL did.
And if XL are moaning that they are not making money out of this race to the bottom contract, why extend it?

Polish dictionary anyone? Cien dobri.

 

[Doc]

XL directors aren’t moaning yet so far as I’ve heard but their sub contractors/employees and the farmers for whom they are doing the tests are.
It was a tender race- lowest wins, even Westpoint pulled out.
If you have a lot of stock, don’t worry, it won’t affect you. If you have a medium/small herd, it will.
It really doesn’t need pages of explanation.
We all know, pay less, get less. Simple.
I’m sorry to hear your practice didn’t keep you in the loop. Around here there were several meetings about it all. The revalidation to do the testing has come up for review recently. I suspect your guys simply said, thanks but no thanks, to being the subcontractors. Financial nonsense for them.

 

[capfits]

Just seen this thread and well what a range of opinions.
Clearly @bovine has skin in the game to greater extent than the vast majority of us.
Many of us will have friends and partners that are vets.
I certainly do. We are lucky in that we are a large unit and could have the pick of 5 practices that are within 45 minutes. All have positive and negative attributes and even some specialists in certain areas, but we have not changed our practice or been tempted to as it is a relationship thing in our mind. It would also be fair to say that the biggest percentage of our vet spend is on preventive measures and lowest of what I would term as firebrigade service ie pneumonia, calving issues unusual things.
The thing is though they are all critical. Without one or the other and the in-between the current spend would be skewed towards the firebrigade side of things higher mortality, lower production and consequently margins.
The owner of our practice sold up recently and I had a wee thought as their biggest customer whether we should look at buying it to
a) broaden our business
b) form a cooperative with other producers in area to protect service for us all.

We elected not to as we have currently lots of practices in the area but more significantly the trouble of getting young vets clinicians that want to work in large animal work and possibly go on to lead a practice at some point looked tricky. You could invest alot of time in wrong person and they in us.
Vets leaving uni have to develop business skills, continue relationships etc. When those that do large animal work with its often long hours and less than ideal working conditions see their small animal colleagues working less hours for better money it is no wonder that there are recruitment issues.
As we all live in rural areas it is not just vets that are having recruitment issues. GPs, pharmacist,teachers, etc are getting tricky to come by.
Least with the vet it is truly in your hands. If you start getting your prescribed drugs elsewhere the practice may disappear all together as margins erode. It all choice but it has real consequences.

 

[MRT]

Although I agree it’s not fair your comment above isn’t in the spirt of the forum. We all hand out advise free of charge to each other I appreciate yours is of a different skill set but still

It is a different situation though as advice is a vets stock in trade, I don't give away free sheep