New limits to SFI.

[theboytheboy]

The Standen Cyclone is still here. Not sure what to do with it. If I put it outside it will soon be rusted to uselessness. But it takes up a lot of shed space. Probably never use it again. It’s a health and safety nightmare. Most people are only interested in the David Brown tractor unit. Yet somehow it feels like an awful shame to cut up a machine that still works and is one of only a handful left. Similar with lots of things here. The grain handling system, is 1950’s vintage but still works. It was too labour intensive so we use central storage now. We also have a home mill and mix system that works with it. All largely redundant now as bought in feed is actually no dearer when you add up all the costs. How things have changed. I’m making myself redundant and SFI only speeds that up. Maybe that’s why “I put obstacles” in its path. It’s a very peculiar feeling for one brought up to maximising production and to some extent told that hard work was a virtue. I suppose same has been felt in many a northern industrial town. It’s just come to us later.

We have finally (over 10 years since we last used it) scrapped our old drier, cleaner, bins and elevators etc nothing wrong with it but couldn't give it away.

Sadly my advice would be weigh it in and find a better use for the shed space. We should have done it years ago but it felt like finally accepting we will never be an arable farm again. Also, I'm a soft git and lots of childhood memories associated with helping grandad and dad etc made it a stangley emotional thing to do.

 

[DrWazzock]

We have finally (over 10 years since we last used it) scrapped our old drier, cleaner, bins and elevators etc nothing wrong with it but couldn't give it away.

Sadly my advice would be weigh it in and find a better use for the shed space. We should have done it years ago but it felt like finally accepting we will never be an arable farm again. Also, I'm a soft git and lots of childhood memories associated with helping grandad and dad etc made it a stangley emotional thing to do.

That’s right. Daft as it sounds, it’s memories that make old kit hardest to let go of.
But from a health and safety point of view I wouldn’t want my niece and nephew to even attempt to use it.

 

[DrWazzock]

If somebody said there’s an option that pays £1500 per ha would people take it?
Yes. It’s called winter wheat. There are of course costs involved but there are costs with all of these options.
I’ve just had a payment for £22k for last years very mediocre crop of OSR which gave an excellent break for this years wheat.
With a lot of messing about and reducing my cereal output by 60%, break crops to zero I can trouser £22k gross off the taxpayer cash before costs involved in those options. TBH I’m not convinced or impressed. It seems like a massive drop in turnover though I know it’s about margins. Two years ago we had 4 tonnes per acre of Bolton Winter barley which we sold for £292 per tonne. There’ll be no chance of that kind of bonanza if we sign up to schemes. The headline payment rates look big for some options but they are gross not net returns. I feel we are somehow about to shrink our business to insignificance if we sign up and other than grass herbal leys for grazing I’m not sure anything is worth the bother. People forget the income lost by displacing cropping. Wheat, barley and even OSR need to continue here otherwise we’ve no big heaps and no big cheques just a kind of thin gruel.

 

[DrWazzock]

Many options like over winter cover crops just seem plain daft in my view. The only crop I could follow one with is spring barley but if the ground was clear in the autumn to drill a cover then why not just drill winter barley? It all seems very unecesssary and making work for the sake of it. Even using stubble turnips as the cover, claiming the payment and going spring barley isn’t as good as a timely drilled winter barley here which involves about a third of the clat.

 

[Hindsight]

Many options like over winter cover crops just seem plain daft in my view. The only crop I could follow one with is spring barley but if the ground was clear in the autumn to drill a cover then why not just drill winter barley? It all seems very unecesssary and making work for the sake of it. Even using stubble turnips as the cover, claiming the payment and going spring barley isn’t as good as a timely drilled winter barley here which involves about a third of the clat.

Not plain daft DrW. Overwinter covers are shown to reduce leaching of Nitrates. And possibly soil too, maybe more dependent on previous crop. But as I have said before SFI is about Defra using a carrot of cash to encourage behavioral change. Rewarding those who have adopted techniques of which Defra approves and to encourage those who may adopt such techniques. You may not agree with those behavioral changes and there is no obligation to join the scheme and adopt any of the techniques. And at the moment no obvious compulsion. So carry on with early drilled Winter Barley. Downside may be Blackgrass. Don't think Defra thought though of the ingenuity of farmers with the sowing date of Bird Cover! Cheers.

 

[willyorkshire]

Not plain daft DrW. Overwinter covers are shown to reduce leaching of Nitrates. And possibly soil too, maybe more dependent on previous crop. But as I have said before SFI is about Defra using a carrot of cash to encourage behavioral change. Rewarding those who have adopted techniques of which Defra approves and to encourage those who may adopt such techniques. You may not agree with those behavioral changes and there is no obligation to join the scheme and adopt any of the techniques. And at the moment no obvious compulsion. So carry on with early drilled Winter Barley. Downside may be Blackgrass. Don't think Defra thought though of the ingenuity of farmers with the sowing date of Bird Cover! Cheers.

My osr and wheat crops ARE my cover crops. I wouldn't compromise those for anything. Output is still everything. There is an attempt to make us feel guilty for not following the new Gospel but for those on high output land with lowish costs, none of these options stack up. Even at £170/t for wheat.

 

[Hindsight]

My osr and wheat crops ARE my cover crops. I wouldn't compromise those for anything. Output is still everything. There is an attempt to make us feel guilty for not following the new Gospel but for those on high output land with lowish costs, none of these options stack up. Even at £170/t for wheat.

Concurr. Which is what Clive has said. Nothing compares with the gross margin of a high yielding high priced crop. But a well established OSR crop and a September Wheat crop also reduces Nitrate leaching. You can of course in that situation claim IPM4 and possibly IPM3 alongside your crop. Although the wheeze of a few Beans for SAM2 along with your rape crop or winter wheat crop is worth it surely? By the way I am not comfortable with that - reliant on Janet Hughes Tweet - but we shall see. I believe SAM2 was intended before a Spring sown crop - to mop up Nitrogen and reduce soil movement and filtration.

You don't have to grow Spring crops. If you can recall the 2022 version of SFI it included the intermediate (was that the term) level payment in which it was compulsory to have 20% of land claimed in sown overwinter cover and thus a Spring crop. This positively discriminated against those who could grow 100% Autumn sown crops.

 

[DrWazzock]

Not plain daft DrW. Overwinter covers are shown to reduce leaching of Nitrates. And possibly soil too, maybe more dependent on previous crop. But as I have said before SFI is about Defra using a carrot of cash to encourage behavioral change. Rewarding those who have adopted techniques of which Defra approves and to encourage those who may adopt such techniques. You may not agree with those behavioral changes and there is no obligation to join the scheme and adopt any of the techniques. And at the moment no obvious compulsion. So carry on with early drilled Winter Barley. Downside may be Blackgrass. Don't think Defra thought though of the ingenuity of farmers with the sowing date of Bird Cover! Cheers.

Winter barley drilled 3rd week of September will soak up residual N and cover the ground fairly well, maybe better than a late drilled cover crop.
I was thinking about NUM3 and leaving aside the risk that it will harbour blackgrass and be a pain to establish, the fact of the matter is it displaces what used to be bread and butter cash crops that gave a gross output double the NUM3 payment.
This year I have lots of wheat even if it is patchy. I think I follow it with winter barley rather than mess around too much. My half failed OSR will be followed by wheat. This years winter barley will be followed by a herbal ley for grazing. I think that will be the limit if my involvement. Next year I will be looking for a break crop over more area. Might look again then though I haven’t given up on OSR.
I just feel I will be poorer all round going down the SFI route with a danger of getting rubbished up with weeds etc.

 

[willyorkshire]

Concurr. Which is what Clive has said. Nothing compares with the gross margin of a high yielding high priced crop. But a well established OSR crop and a September Wheat crop also reduces Nitrate leaching. You can of course in that situation claim IPM4 and possibly IPM3 alongside your crop. Although the wheeze of a few Beans for SAM2 along with your rape crop or winter wheat crop is worth it surely? By the way I am not comfortable with that - reliant on Janet Hughes Tweet - but we shall see. I believe SAM2 was intended before a Spring sown crop - to mop up Nitrogen and reduce soil movement and filtration.

You don't have to grow Spring crops. If you can recall the 2022 version of SFI it included the intermediate (was that the term) level payment in which it was compulsory to have 20% of land claimed in sown overwinter cover and thus a Spring crop. This positively discriminated against those who could grow 100% Autumn sown crops.

Of course you are correct. Some companion cropping worth the effort with little risk. I'm in the pilot but not many options left in the new schemes that were in the pilot. We are preparing to manage with minimal sub, just take it where it fits our system. My sons do much of the work now and agree with this approach. It's their future. My father in law preceded me on this farm. He was very good to me, stepped away to let me have a go. I'm doing the same for my sons.

 

[Hindsight]

Of course you are correct. Some companion cropping worth the effort with little risk. I'm in the pilot but not many options left in the new schemes that were in the pilot. We are preparing to manage with minimal sub, just take it where it fits our system. My sons do much of the work now and agree with this approach. It's their future. My father in law preceded me on this farm. He was very good to me, stepped away to let me have a go. I'm doing the same for my sons.

Hi. Ah, you are in the Pilot SFI. I have had little to do with the Pilot. My observation though is the actual SFI bears little if any relation to the Pilot and none to the 2022 version of SFI. Is just a Stewardship Scheme now. Think you will find quite a bit in SFI 2023 to add to your system. IPM3 and IPM4 I would expect will fit in well as having followed some of your posts I believe your farm is Direct Drilling. That would bring circa £100 ha for little expense. And then there are more to come for direct drilling etc - provided the pot of cash isn't spent on folk fallowing large tracts of land using SFI as well paid set aside. Or Herbal Ley on the grass farms. Anyway time will tell. Cheers.

 

[fieldfarmer]

Whichever figure you use doesn’t matter the correct figure looking back is £7090 per acre
You would have to be very bias against any livestock producing operation to say that it’s ‘income forgone’ that they are working off
It isn’t
So what is it? Not land values not earning potential.

Well it kind of does matter, if you were trying to lobby parliament for a fair deal maybe narrow it down to the nearest £7000. per acre.
And I do have a livestock producing operation.

 

[Clive]

21%! What's been your highest figure @Clive ?

the important figure is additionality which has been circa 0.1% / year

there is no payment for storage, just sequestration

 

[Jimdog1]

the important figure is additionality which has been circa 0.1% / year

there is no payment for storage, just sequestration

Sure. I thought 21% was a phenomenal figure. I know you have been gathering data over many years and wondered what range you had found and what was your highest figure. Not a loaded question.

 

[willyorkshire]

Hi. Ah, you are in the Pilot SFI. I have had little to do with the Pilot. My observation though is the actual SFI bears little if any relation to the Pilot and none to the 2022 version of SFI. Is just a Stewardship Scheme now. Think you will find quite a bit in SFI 2023 to add to your system. IPM3 and IPM4 I would expect will fit in well as having followed some of your posts I believe your farm is Direct Drilling. That would bring circa £100 ha for little expense. And then there are more to come for direct drilling etc - provided the pot of cash isn't spent on folk fallowing large tracts of land using SFI as well paid set aside. Or Herbal Ley on the grass farms. Anyway time will tell. Cheers.

Thanks for your comments. Can't add to pilot, must start new agreement. So to avoid having 3 agreements we were waiting for release of new options summer 24. More fool me! Missed the boat and now in the 25% zone. Of course we keep looking at options but not much of it fits our farming ops. We are strip till not DD and they've removed payment for strip till from SFI - it was in the pilot.

 

[Case290]

strip till was inn but then they changed there minds not in any more. ? Sounds familiar. We’re all going to be grey when this is over. Is there a chance there change decision, about the inheritance tax on the Sfi environment schemes.. re 12mths time.

 

[willyorkshire]

In our situation strip till is fairly foolproof, uses much less fuel and wearing parts and now have little machinery and only 2 tractors (one would probably do). Chop all straw add chicken muck, rake and drill. Output slightly up, big increase in worms. Seems odd that there's no payment for this system. Not too bothered. Started this method before SFI was dreamed up.

 

[4course]

Having got up this morning to yet another overnight deluge just when I thought things improving in a to say the least a concerened state about the 60 acre or so that has either been lost or not yet sown .It occured to me that the sfi payments from today until aug 25 here will more or less fill the hole , im now more convinced weve done right in applying

 

[Henarar]

the important figure is additionality which has been circa 0.1% / year

there is no payment for storage, just sequestration

Yep you have to do wrong in order to be paid to do right

 

[digger64]

If somebody said there’s an option that pays £1500 per ha would people take it?
Yes. It’s called winter wheat. There are of course costs involved but there are costs with all of these options.
I’ve just had a payment for £22k for last years very mediocre crop of OSR which gave an excellent break for this years wheat.
With a lot of messing about and reducing my cereal output by 60%, break crops to zero I can trouser £22k gross off the taxpayer cash before costs involved in those options. TBH I’m not convinced or impressed. It seems like a massive drop in turnover though I know it’s about margins. Two years ago we had 4 tonnes per acre of Bolton Winter barley which we sold for £292 per tonne. There’ll be no chance of that kind of bonanza if we sign up to schemes. The headline payment rates look big for some options but they are gross not net returns. I feel we are somehow about to shrink our business to insignificance if we sign up and other than grass herbal leys for grazing I’m not sure anything is worth the bother. People forget the income lost by displacing cropping. Wheat, barley and even OSR need to continue here otherwise we’ve no big heaps and no big cheques just a kind of thin gruel.

Do you get a headache as the pendulum bangs from one side to other inside your head
?

 

[Grass And Grain]

Sure. I thought 21% was a phenomenal figure. I know you have been gathering data over many years and wondered what range you had found and what was your highest figure. Not a loaded question.

Our arable ground receives some FYM and is about 6% OM.

The permanent grass, which is in adjoining fields, varies between about 10% and 24%, and bit of a guess.... but possibly been under same management for decades and probably centuries. Yet OM levels vary dramatically. Makes one wonder how accurate these modelling systems will be.

strip till was inn but then they changed there minds not in any more. ? Sounds familiar. We’re all going to be grey when this is over. Is there a chance there change decision, about the inheritance tax on the Sfi environment schemes.. re 12mths time.

Someone could have gone out and purchased a strip till drill based on the original SFI, but now wish they hadn't. Can't beat government meddling!

12 months must be an all-time record for ag policy change.

Hang on, no, the 2023 SFI offer beats it. In January they were raising payment rates to get increased SFI uptake. By March they'd announced % caps.