Organic farming

[Highland Farmer]

They want assurance, but they accept several different schemes, including Soil Association and OF&G assurance schemes. Trying to find out what the standards are for these schemes, but can't find them. Unless they are simply included within the normal organic standards.

Soil assoc has no assurance with certification so you need to get RT separately - generally the inspectors are both organic and assurance so can get both inspected at the same time, but organic certification doesn't confer any assurance. Of&g have some crop assurance integrated into the organic certification (I think). Livestock would require a separate inspection.

 

[Grass And Grain]

Soil assoc has no assurance with certification so you need to get RT separately - generally the inspectors are both organic and assurance so can get both inspected at the same time, but organic certification doesn't confer any assurance. Of&g have some crop assurance integrated into the organic certification (I think). Livestock would require a separate inspection.

Thank you.

 

[glasshouse]

I'm registered as organic with the soil association and I'm very cynical about so called modern organic farming. Let me say first that real organic farming is in my opinion finding out how to help the land work for itself by finding the grasses, crops and livestock that best suit the land. If you read books by Newman turner or Robert Elliot and his Clifton park system, then these pioneers found ways of making their land work. It has taken me many years and much expense to get onto a positive cycle of production where I feel that the land is improving and giving back more than I am having to provide and I am not having a negative impact on the land by increasing weed banks, reducing nutrient availability, decreasing productivity, etc. Conventional farming allows that pain to be bypassed with a formulaic approach that can produce very good output with the correct application of nutrients and treatments, whether that be crop or animal. My criticism of modern so called organic is that "commercial organic" that sells to the big players is really no different than conventional farming, especially from a livestock perspective, in fact I could argue it's actually worse. I have spoken to the soil association about this and the chap I spoke to agreed with me that a conventional hill sheep or native breed conventional grass fed beef is probably more natural than so called organic from high productivity units. Organic as a philosophy of land management has been hijacked by the commercial sector and most farmers can spot hypocrisy a mile away. I argue that if a consumer could see all the derogations and treatments that a commercial organic farmer had applied then it would be no different than a conventional farmer and in many cases would be worse because the conventional treatments are more effective. The soil association and other bodies don't support the real organic philosophy of farming, they are interested in pushing a left wing agenda and climate change whilst at the same time maximising their monetary gain through commercial organic i.e. to the standard not the philosophy, such that real organic farmers are excluded from the commercial mainstream outlets because they don't adopt the necessary output criteria.

Yes
I had to give up growing organic wheat after the soil association allowed Russia to flood the market
Same with eggs, potatoes etc

 

[7610 super q]

I always thought the soil association should have introduced quotas and be done with it, after all they sought to control everything else..........

 

[Ffermer Bach]

They want assurance, but they accept several different schemes, including Soil Association and OF&G assurance schemes. Trying to find out what the standards are for these schemes, but can't find them. Unless they are simply included within the normal organic standards.

I think there are a few different schemes, that can all assure your output and means you can call yourself organic. I am Welsh Organic Scheme, I was told when I was choosing a scheme to join that the Soil Association was was all people who wore crochet yogurt sandals where as the Welsh scheme were all farmers, so had a more pragmatic attitude towards how food is produced, having said that, everyone has heard of the Soil Association, so they have done a great job on publicising organic production. Welsh scheme does farm assurance during the same visit.

https://welshorganic.co.uk/

 

[Martyn]

Would this section of my of&g certificate allow me to sell organic grain to a feed mill?

 

[Highland Farmer]

Would this section of my of&g certificate allow me to sell organic grain to a feed mill?

Oops missed the feed part of the mill. No, unless you're assured you can't sell to the feed mill, or even to other assured farmers (officially). Been there the first year I had 100t of organic oats that didn't make milling grade, couldn't sell them to anyone...

Saying that, doesn't your of&g certification cover you for crop assurance as well?

 

[betweenthelines]

There is no legal definition of what is/can be claimed to be "organic" in the UK, just "certification" by interested bodies such as the Soil Assn.

 

[Ffermer Bach]

when I have my inspection, my certificate says what I produce, that is organic, so I can sell it organically, plus FAWL (farm assured Welsh Livestock for which I have a separate certification number but both audited on the same visit, although FAWL is a longer period than organic inspection).

 

[Grass And Grain]

Would this section of my of&g certificate allow me to sell organic grain to a feed mill?

The below are the schemes AIC recognise. Doesn't mention OF&G , ...

 

[Martyn]

The below are the schemes AIC recognise. Doesn't mention OF&G , ...

All bonkers as it's audited by red tractor for our livestock forage storage etc, no chemical or fert use as organic! I'm hoping if demand is heading in the direction it is someone will want top quality grain

 

[Martyn]

Oops missed the feed part of the mill. No, unless you're assured you can't sell to the feed mill, or even to other assured farmers (officially). Been there the first year I had 100t of organic oats that didn't make milling grade, couldn't sell them to anyone...

Saying that, doesn't your of&g certification cover you for crop assurance as well?

I'll email of&g as I'm due a new certificate and the arable side of the audit covers grain storage etc.

 

[Sid]

There is no legal definition of what is/can be claimed to be "organic" in the UK, just "certification" by interested bodies such as the Soil Assn.

Your superior ignorance on the subject shines bright

 

[Ffermer Bach]

There is no legal definition of what is/can be claimed to be "organic" in the UK, just "certification" by interested bodies such as the Soil Assn.

Organic is defined, and to be organic you must be audited by an assurance body, what is not defined is the marketing fluff like farm fresh or other such garbage, which implies something but states nothing. As @Sid said, it is defined.

 

[Sid]

Organic is defined, and to be organic you must be audited by an assurance body, what is not defined is the marketing fluff like farm fresh or other such garbage, which implies something but states nothing. As @Sid said, it is defined.

Another marketing fluff is "regenerative" Means absolutely nothing

 

[Al R]

Organic is defined, and to be organic you must be audited by an assurance body, what is not defined is the marketing fluff like farm fresh or other such garbage, which implies something but states nothing. As @Sid said, it is defined.

Local guy I know who’s a bit of a wheeler dealer goes around the area getting the unwanted bits that people don’t want and he does small bale hay on them and sells them as “organic hay” to folk on Facebook. I lost it with him one day when I worked on a conventional arable farm which was seriously high artificial input on both sprays and ferts. He asked if he could do 500 small straws to sell on, we said yes, that night all over Facebook organic small bale straw for sale from him, the field had been roundup’ed too ffs
He said to me that if he himself hadn’t put anything on it it was organic in his eyes
Made a complete mockery to all of us who are actually organic

 

[betweenthelines]

Organic is defined, and to be organic you must be audited by an assurance body, what is not defined is the marketing fluff like farm fresh or other such garbage, which implies something but states nothing. As @Sid said, it is defined.

Exactly.

It's non governmental assurance bodies that say if something is "organic"

There is no Legal -as in Act of Law-definition of what is organic.

As is the case with milk, bacon etc, which is why vegan alternatives can be called "vegan milk" "vegan bacon"

 

[Sid]

Exactly.

It's non governmental assurance bodies that say if something is "organic"

There is no Legal -as in Act of Law-definition of what is organic.

As is the case with milk, bacon etc, which is why vegan alternatives can be called "vegan milk" "vegan bacon"

Organic food: labelling and advertising rules

Rules on labelling food, feed and seed as organic or using organic production terms if you produce, prepare, store, import, export or sell organic food in the UK.

www.gov.uk

Absolutely there is a legal definition in UK.

 

[Martyn]

There is no legal definition of what is/can be claimed to be "organic" in the UK, just "certification" by interested bodies such as the Soil Assn.

Organic food: labelling and advertising rules

Rules on labelling food, feed and seed as organic or using organic production terms if you produce, prepare, store, import, export or sell organic food in the UK.

www.gov.uk

Absolutely there is a legal definition in UK.

Don't waste your energy, he has his little daft thought every three or four months on TFF, let him amuse himself.

 

[Ffermer Bach]

Another marketing fluff is "regenerative" Means absolutely nothing

regenerative is a philosophy for land management, where as organic is definable and therefore can be audited.