I often wonder how many beef and sheep farmers just put the stuff on with no regard to what it's actually doing. My land has had a regular dose every year for as long as I can remember and it's only stopped in the last 2 years. In fact the last chap to buy the grass had 2 goes. I was staggered at the cost when I took on the place. Looking at it now, I don't think it made a single bit of difference. I've got grass coming out of my ears.
Our N addiction
- Thread starter Farmer Roy
- Start date
KMA
Member
- Location
- Dumfriesshire
you're lucky, I've got hair coming out of mine
Some of that too. I was alright until I hit 40. Then you instantly go blind and deaf. Hair stops growing on your head and starts coming out of other places where it shouldn't. Not sure we were really designed to live much past 35.........you're lucky, I've got hair coming out of mine
Better up the rate of 20:10:10 on my corn flakes.
It does nothing of the sort: it illustrates a farming practice that works, and it illustrates that some farmers (including yourself) have a hang up because you perceive something be a problem that isn't 'a problem'. Everything we all do has consequences, farmers or not, and the only way to reduce our detrimental impact on the environment is to queue up to dangle on the end of an organic hemp rope. So quit your 'holier than thou' BS; and instead of pointing your finger at others, stick it somewhere else
"Heroin addict" your arse...
There is one chemical element that hasn't been metioned at all here; Fe. Iron, or more specifically steel cultivators. We all know what they do to soil organic matter. Have all the US long term trials been done with no till? How do they tell the difference between SOC oxidised by tillage and SOC depletion by nitrophilic soil life? I doubt it.
Artificial nitrogen has allowed us to produce more from an acre of land than anything else. It still gives the highest return on investment of any artificial crop inputs. It helps pay the bills on high cost land. These guys whinge about soils with a full stomach. The Green Revolutiion would not have happened without nitrogen fertiliser & we would have had our Malthusian armageddon without it by now.
I accept that excessive N is not good for the long term health of the soil but you can't just climb off the intensive ag treadmill straight away if you depend on selling a crop to pay for planting the next one and feeding yourself.
Last edited:
Cowabunga
Member
- Location
- Ceredigion,Wales
The population of Europe is stable or declining. The UK population and wealth is only 'sustained' by immigration. Should our population decline markedly it would lead to greater poverty due to less people earning money and wanting goods.
Population growth is a massive issue in some countries, mainly ones that are on the poverty line and indeed cannot grow their own food to 'sustain' that population growth. This leads to the wars we see commonly in those regions where one lot tries to acquire more land even at the expense of eliminating the rival population.
The point you have touched on is important and is that just because something is available it does not make it good.
If GM was accepted in Europe we would all have to embrace it or lose out.
Makes no odds whether GM is good or not we would have to become servants of the seed/chemical companies.
Same as if hormones were allowed for beef and milk producers,ddt for pest control and a miriad of other chemical based products which could do a job at a low financial cost but a high one to the environment.
Ha, someone doesn't fancy going 'Cold Turkey'!
It does nothing of the sort: it illustrates a farming practice that works, and it illustrates that some farmers (including yourself) have a hang up because you perceive something be a problem that isn't 'a problem'. Everything we all do has consequences, farmers or not, and the only way to reduce our detrimental impact on the environment is to queue up to dangle on the end of an organic hemp rope. So quit your 'holier than thou' BS; and instead of pointing your finger at others, stick it somewhere else
"Heroin addict" your arse...
- Location
- Ceredigion
Farming is realy going back to the dark ages
It does nothing of the sort: it illustrates a farming practice that works, and it illustrates that some farmers (including yourself) have a hang up because you perceive something be a problem that isn't 'a problem'. Everything we all do has consequences, farmers or not, and the only way to reduce our detrimental impact on the environment is to queue up to dangle on the end of an organic hemp rope. So quit your 'holier than thou' BS; and instead of pointing your finger at others, stick it somewhere else
"Heroin addict" your arse...
We use in the region of 120 units artificial N on the silage fields in 12 months,an amount which gives good production however to put 2 1/2 times more would be quite a step change.
Maybe the whole of the UK should be designated NVZ to allow sensible application of N fert.
By the way we are in a NVZ.
awkward
Member
- Location
- kerry ireland
dark ages maybe not. crops will grow better. be more holesome .get p&k lime correct in soil and see how little difference is between crops at harvest.
KMA
Member
- Location
- Dumfriesshire
I do think that as we better understand the whole gamut of processes and effects then the way we farm will change. I do believe there are things we still don't know or fully understand that may, in time, compensate for reducing bag N.
Organic is not the answer if farmers are to feed the world, however we need to be more open minded and adopt and adapt ideas that may currently be viewed by the mainstream as 'muck and magic'. Hell we're still rediscovering ideas and techniques from pre-history.
Organic is not the answer if farmers are to feed the world, however we need to be more open minded and adopt and adapt ideas that may currently be viewed by the mainstream as 'muck and magic'. Hell we're still rediscovering ideas and techniques from pre-history.
Cowabunga
Member
- Location
- Ceredigion,Wales
Nobody has to do anything. We are free to run our businesses as extensively and organically as we chose. Some farmers choose to fill the organic niche. Others like my neighbour to the north, choose to farm just like they did in the 1950's. Others like me choose to farm rather more intensively to maximise the resources at my disposal. I could stop tomorrow and sow a few clover and farm 35 dairy cows and 100 sheep just as the land 'sustained' before after the war. Before that, the output was even less of course because a third of land was needed to keep horses, which were the tractor of their day.
First thing to go if I stopped using N would be my 35k a year farm worker of course. No way would his job be sustainable, so best ask his family what he thinks 'sustainable ' means and of his prospects of getting a job in a rural area if many farms such as mine made the same change.
Cowabunga
Member
- Location
- Ceredigion,Wales
That has been proven in field trials since the beginning of last century. The difference is massive. There is an economic yield response in grassland up to easily 300 units per acre given the p k ph and moisture plus the grass varieties to utilise it. It's not rocket science, although from some of the posts here it seems that some have never learnt the basics and view it all as if black magic.
Artificial Nitrogen works fantastically well, it's not perfect, but nothing is.
A truly 'ecological' farmer would refuse to use tractors (or any products derived from fossil fuels) and return to farming with oxen, and eschew processed or artificial fibres in favour of a flax smock. And if they really 'practiced what they preached' they would shun all the 'nasty chemicals' in modern medicines too, because they're "not perfect" either.
It all depends on just how high your 'high horse' is.
I don't think it's about high and low horses mate, I believe it's about the use of Artificial Nitrogen, long-term husbandry, and the research linked at the start of the thread.
Like you say, nothing's perfect, but we could still try to do our best to do what we believe is right in the long-term rather than give up because it's hard, or you don't want to make a short-term sacrifice.
- Location
- East yorks
Could end up like Denmark, where they have a government imposed maximum and any fertiliser u don't use is collected so you cannot stock pile for next year
Nice post
Talking of the dark ages, if the greenies get their way that's exactly where we are going in this country (and Europe)! If we have a major energy crisis or Danish style limits based on nitrate pollution we will have restrictions on how much we can use or buy. The biggest carbon input into intensive farming is the production of N fertiliser - look at what the government are doing for new sales of cars in the future to see what is coming our way.
Better to look at the ideally sustainable way forward and try to adapt to it gradually IMO. Rather than look at maximising beef/lamb/milk/grain production per acre by pouring max N on think of another way - look for a premium for low intensity grazing that covers a loss of biomass production. Easier said than done, but the days of chucking 300 kg/ha N on intensive grassland or arable are numbered. Why wait until we are forced to change?
Goweresque
Member
- Location
- North Wilts
You wouldn't be getting any respect, you'd be getting the anger of the local population on your head. I don't think the reaction of people to a rough doubling of food costs would be 'Well done farmers for reducing nitrogen use and saving the soil!'
Apart from all of which it wouldn't be Westerners who would suffer the most (though some would, feeding a family on benefits if food prices doubled would certainly be beyond the abilities of many), it would be people in poor countries that rely on cheap food imports to keep them all fed. The West is rich, if push comes shove it could afford wheat at £300/tonne. Poor countries that cannot produce enough food themselves would starve - they couldn't afford to buy it at that price.
awkward
Member
- Location
- kerry ireland
so u have never experienced any take it or leave it attitude from any sector. where on earth do u live