Pedigree Sheep Sales - implications for NI export

[sheepwise]

Had a discussion about this last night and wondered what different breed societies views will be on pedigree sales this year. As I understand it, a sale either needs to be classified as Export or Non-Export. For an export sale all entries must be scrapie monitored or tested as R1 and also brucella tested within two weeks of sale. Crucially, no entries from NI will be allowed at an Export classified sale however all purchases will be deemed fit to enter NI (and also EIRE I believe) immediately following the sale. If the sale is classified as Non-Export then entries can be accepted from NI but any sheep purchased to go to NI must be quarantined in this country for 60 days before being allowed to travel.
There will obviously be some breeds affected more than others. I would guess at the texel sale at Lanark there could normally be 20 NI vendors and many purchases going there also. Will there be implications for Kelso and Builth too?

 

[M-J-G]

Had a discussion about this last night and wondered what different breed societies views will be on pedigree sales this year. As I understand it, a sale either needs to be classified as Export or Non-Export. For an export sale all entries must be scrapie monitored or tested as R1 and also brucella tested within two weeks of sale. Crucially, no entries from NI will be allowed at an Export classified sale however all purchases will be deemed fit to enter NI (and also EIRE I believe)

Cattle from NI can be sold on the mainland, but cannot return to NI until they have completed a 6 months residency.
I believe sheep to be the same, which will be why they wouldn't qualify for export.

 

[sheepwise]

Cattle from NI can be sold on the mainland, but cannot return to NI until they have completed a 6 months residency.
I believe sheep to be the same, which will be why they wouldn't qualify for export.

Managed to submit my post before I had it completed. Have edited it now.

 

[neilo]

Had a discussion about this last night and wondered what different breed societies views will be on pedigree sales this year. As I understand it, a sale either needs to be classified as Export or Non-Export. For an export sale all entries must be scrapie monitored or tested as R1 and also brucella tested within two weeks of sale. Crucially, no entries from NI will be allowed at an Export classified sale however all purchases will be deemed fit to enter NI (and also EIRE I believe) immediately following the sale. If the sale is classified as Non-Export then entries can be accepted from NI but any sheep purchased to go to NI must be quarantined in this country for 60 days before being allowed to travel.
There will obviously be some breeds affected more than others. I would guess at the texel sale at Lanark there could normally be 20 NI vendors and many purchases going there also. Will there be implications for Kelso and Builth too?

We had this discussion, possibly about the same sale, in a Zoom meeting a few nights ago. The scrapie test also needs to be done by a vet, and has to be an (extortionately priced) SAC test iirc. Ultimately, the additional cost for qualifying as an export sale we calculated to be circa £120 per animal entered!
IMO such a requirement makes such a sale even more of a rich man’s hobby sale, effectively excluding entries from most ‘farm’ flocks.

 

[sheepwise]

We had this discussion, possibly about the same sale, in a Zoom meeting a few nights ago. The scrapie test also needs to be done by a vet, and has to be an (extortionately priced) SAC test iirc. Ultimately, the additional cost for qualifying as an export sale we calculated to be circa £120 per animal entered!
IMO such a requirement makes such a sale even more of a rich man’s hobby sale, effectively excluding entries from most ‘farm’ flocks.

So how do all the blackies still get across?

 

[neilo]

So how do all the blackies still get across?

i was listening in on the NSA webinar/breakfast meeting this morning, with spokespersons from each devolved nation giving details on each of their proposed Ag support schemes. The question of that trade was brought up and I think the general consensus was that the trade would have to stop now.

I guess the best get out for those NI owned lambs trapped in Scotland this Spring might be to take the loss and hang them up?

 

[sheepwise]

Not sure about the £120 cost, think our vets would be a fraction of that. I was more coming at it from how sales will be affected in breeds with a strong two way NI trade eg. texels. As I see it sheep can still go after 60 days quarantine so more likely to affect tups which would normally be bought for use right away. Haven't heard of any blackies being stranded here after purchase, think a lot of them go in through Eire. Also the NI breeders own sales will go ahead as normal with any purchased stock able to be transported immediately to mainland UK.

 

[neilo]

Not sure about the £120 cost, think our vets would be a fraction of that. I was more coming at it from how sales will be affected in breeds with a strong two way NI trade eg. texels. As I see it sheep can still go after 60 days quarantine so more likely to affect tups which would normally be bought for use right away. Haven't heard of any blackies being stranded here after purchase, think a lot of them go in through Eire. Also the NI breeders own sales will go ahead as normal with any purchased stock able to be transported immediately to mainland UK.

B.Ovis lab fees are about £40, plus a vet visit for taking bloods. SAC scrapie genotype is £31.50, plus a vet visit (3 turnaround and needs doing before sale entry, so separate visit needed), then a vet visit & inspection the day before the sale for the export paperwork, as is the case now. I'd be surprised if it didn't come to more than £120 per animal tbh, just for the additional costs associated with making it an 'export sale'. Obviously the usual sale entry fees, pedigree registration and commission would still apply too.

 

[easyram1]

B.Ovis lab fees are about £40, plus a vet visit for taking bloods. SAC scrapie genotype is £31.50, plus a vet visit (3 turnaround and needs doing before sale entry, so separate visit needed), then a vet visit & inspection the day before the sale for the export paperwork, as is the case now. I'd be surprised if it didn't come to more than £120 per animal tbh, just for the additional costs associated with making it an 'export sale'. Obviously the usual sale entry fees, pedigree registration and commission would still apply too.

You are 100% correct and £120/animal does NOT cover it. Another problem we found when selling off farm was that B Ovis test is only valid for 30 days from the day the blood sample was taken. SAC can and have taken so long to get Scrapie tests back that the B Ovis 30 days has expired and have to redo it. To be fair SAC were quicker in 2020 but in earlier years a real issue at the busy time of year ie around ram sale time. Also another cost is incurred for MV test if animal is 12 months old and going to South. I assume this requirement will also apply to the North from now on

 

[Joe]

Are export sales definitely an option, was on a call recently where export centres were discussed. But someone I think from Defra said an export centre couldn't be an auction as well, could be a mart but not hosting an auction the same day. Sounded ridiculous so maybe it was wrong or has changed....

 

[neilo]

Are export sales definitely an option, was on a call recently where export centres were discussed. But someone I think from Defra said an export centre couldn't be an auction as well, could be a mart but not hosting an auction the same day. Sounded ridiculous so maybe it was wrong or has changed....

That’s right. Apparently you can’t have an export sale and a ‘normal’ sale, even in different sections of the mart. Some concern about ‘shared air space’ or some such nonsense, even though separate sections are fine for respiratory diseases like Mv.

Let’s all just hope it’s all temporary and common sense prevails eventually.

 

[sheepwise]

You are 100% correct and £120/animal does NOT cover it. Another problem we found when selling off farm was that B Ovis test is only valid for 30 days from the day the blood sample was taken. SAC can and have taken so long to get Scrapie tests back that the B Ovis 30 days has expired and have to redo it. To be fair SAC were quicker in 2020 but in earlier years a real issue at the busy time of year ie around ram sale time. Also another cost is incurred for MV test if animal is 12 months old and going to South. I assume this requirement will also apply to the North from now on

Thanks for that information. With all due respect your situation is different from an actual sale. In your case you only need to test sheep that are definitely sold and going to be exported. The cost of this has to be factored into the price agreed between you and your customer and you have the option of not going ahead if a suitable price can not be agreed. I am in this position in regards to an enquiry from Germany for a couple of tup lambs off one of our stock tups. Once we know all costs involved then we will quote our price. If the buyer thinks this is too high then the deal is off before any costs are incurred.
At an export sale every entry will have incurred that cost (which with entry fees,etc could be £200/head) before knowing if you’re even going to get a bid!! At the moment looks like a non starter.

 

[easyram1]

Thanks for that information. With all due respect your situation is different from an actual sale. In your case you only need to test sheep that are definitely sold and going to be exported. The cost of this has to be factored into the price agreed between you and your customer and you have the option of not going ahead if a suitable price can not be agreed. I am in this position in regards to an enquiry from Germany for a couple of tup lambs off one of our stock tups. Once we know all costs involved then we will quote our price. If the buyer thinks this is too high then the deal is off before any costs are incurred.
At an export sale every entry will have incurred that cost (which with entry fees,etc could be £200/head) before knowing if you’re even going to get a bid!! At the moment looks like a non starter.

In terms of Breed Society Sales 20+ years ago the Suffolk Society did run certain of their Society Sales as "Export Sales". I cannot recall why but the procedure definitely allowed sheep ( mainly rams) to go straight to Europe ( including S Ireland) Although vendors could elect whether to incurr the costs of blood tests pre the sale or go into the "Non Export" section at the end of the sale it caused a right old row between breeders. The reason was that the "Big Boys" were willing to pay the money for pre sale testing and so were in the Export section at the start of the sale while the Domestic only rams were sold last and where considered "inferior"
I do not know how important exports are to the various breed societies or individual breeders but if they are I would suggest you may see more on farm export sales. What the Northern Irish changes will certainly do is to stop sheep going initially into the North and then drifting under the radar into the South which has been happening for years and which is an ongoing source of aggro for all of us, who keep to the rules.

 

[easyram1]

Are export sales definitely an option, was on a call recently where export centres were discussed. But someone I think from Defra said an export centre couldn't be an auction as well, could be a mart but not hosting an auction the same day. Sounded ridiculous so maybe it was wrong or has changed....

In the past export sales could be held in Marts but not on the same day as other livestock were being sold within the mart. We were however allowed to sell export and non export sheep through the same ring BUT the non export sheep had to be sold last.

 

[neilo]

In the past export sales could be held in Marts but not on the same day as other livestock were being sold within the mart. We were however allowed to sell export and non export sheep through the same ring BUT the non export sheep had to be sold last.

Not allowed on the same day, in the same market, now apparently.

 

[sheepwise]

In terms of Breed Society Sales 20+ years ago the Suffolk Society did run certain of their Society Sales as "Export Sales". I cannot recall why but the procedure definitely allowed sheep ( mainly rams) to go straight to Europe ( including S Ireland) Although vendors could elect whether to incurr the costs of blood tests pre the sale or go into the "Non Export" section at the end of the sale it caused a right old row between breeders. The reason was that the "Big Boys" were willing to pay the money for pre sale testing and so were in the Export section at the start of the sale while the Domestic only rams were sold last and where considered "inferior"
I do not know how important exports are to the various breed societies or individual breeders but if they are I would suggest you may see more on farm export sales. What the Northern Irish changes will certainly do is to stop sheep going initially into the North and then drifting under the radar into the South which has been happening for years and which is an ongoing source of aggro for all of us, who keep to the rules.

The Suffolk society has decided that their sales this year will only be for R1s from scrapie monitored flocks. Sheep from NI can come as normal.

 

[easyram1]

The Suffolk society has decided that their sales this year will only be for R1s from scrapie monitored flocks. Sheep from NI can come as normal.

I would suggest that the problem for all breeds is not getting sheep from Ireland ( North or South ) to sell on the mainland the real problem will be getting them back any time soon either if they are unsold or if an Irish Flock owner buys a sheep from a mainland sale

 

[neilo]

The Suffolk society has decided that their sales this year will only be for R1s from scrapie monitored flocks. Sheep from NI can come as normal.

Good luck to them, but I’d be loathe to follow their lead!

I argued, when this was discussed last week, that ‘premier’ sales should be inclusive, not just a club sale for the wealthier breeders that are willing to punt £200 a piece on sale entries. Those flocks aren’t necessarily breeding the better quality sheep (even if they might like to think so), and everything should be done to encourage the best breeding sheep are presented at those sales, regardless of the flock’s profile or financial standing... imho of course.

Regrettably, that will mean that ‘export’ sales will be a non-starter, under the current rules.

 

[sheep breeder]

Not sure about the £120 cost, think our vets would be a fraction of that. I was more coming at it from how sales will be affected in breeds with a strong two way NI trade eg. texels. As I see it sheep can still go after 60 days quarantine so more likely to affect tups which would normally be bought for use right away. Haven't heard of any blackies being stranded here after purchase, think a lot of them go in through Eire. Also the NI breeders own sales will go ahead as normal with any purchased stock able to be transported immediately to mainland UK.

Where do the blackies come into the south for to go north of Ireland, south will have different import rules than the north, most sheep coming into Ireland come in over the top to larne. No livestock through Dublin port and in through Wexford port.

 

[sheepwise]

Where do the blackies come into the south for to go north of Ireland, south will have different import rules than the north, most sheep coming into Ireland come in over the top to larne. No livestock through Dublin port and in through Wexford port.

Not sure ,only what I heard. But from what you're saying they actually all must go in through the North..