Rotten full term lambs

[midlifecrisis]

Wondering if anyone can shed some light or ideas on an issue I have had in this years lambing. Almost done (last 10% to go) and I have had about 3-5% of my ewes dying with rotten lambs inside. The lambs are full-term and seem to be fully formed, I can't see a pattern of it affecting more multiples than singles. Prior to the problem I would defy anyone to look in the pen or field and spot a potential case. What typically happens is the ewes starts prolonged pushing or occasionally look ill before hand and then once caught you can tell they have the issue. They are not typically well opened but sometimes I can get the lambs out but in most cases the ewes die very quickly afterwards, yesterday one died within an hour.

We got an autopsy done yesterday taking samples from lambs and the ewe. On opening up the ewe the womb and liver were black and stinking, but not flukey. So we are now waiting to see what comes back but obviously this is for next year and will have to grind our way through the last of them. I don't think it's toxo and I guess it's some sort of metritis but fodder seems good. Unless this is a knock-on from the incredibly wet and muddy autumn/winter?

The ewes are a mixture of housed (triplets and singles) and out in the fields (twins) and are fed a 1kg or so of a sheep roll and some good quality minerals. They are on a Hep-P system and as I say don't look in ill-thrift, often the opposite.

Real head scratcher and to be honest a bit of a morale buster...

 

[Greythundercloudys]

I get some like that, but just a hand full, very strange, hellish seeing a good ewe go with it, l just leave them, lv tried to lmb some over the years but a waste of time and the ewe always dies, had one last week, the lmbs were like mush, made me sick with the smell, she was dead the next morning, but why l don't know either.

 

[Nithsdale]

Myself and a nearby neighbour both had this last year... no rhyme or reason to it, but some ewes seemed to just keep their lambs too long. Both outdoor lambing at the same time.

No signs of labour, no peculiar behaviors - until you got them laid up with rotten lambs. I'd say last year 1.5-2% of the flock did this... and of all the ewes I found with these rotten lambs, survival was less than 50%. Management was same as every other year, neither of us had never seen it before.

2 ewes with rotten lambs this year... both have survived

Some years you get runs of things which just have no explanation...

 

[midlifecrisis]

Thanks for the replies, I too always have a few but thought this year it was more a significant % and hence to do something about it. The autopsy will no doubt cost a fortune but losing 10 to 15 ewes plus lambs is so as well. I shall wait with baited breath and report back if there is anything significant. My total guess is something soil borne and hence not sure I can do much about it.

 

[Farmer 83563]

Thanks for the replies, I too always have a few but thought this year it was more a significant % and hence to do something about it. The autopsy will no doubt cost a fortune but losing 10 to 15 ewes plus lambs is so as well. I shall wait with baited breath and report back if there is anything significant. My total guess is something soil borne and hence not sure I can do much about it.

Just had a similar experience in a full term Limmy cow. She was looking well and seemed happy till yesterday morning started calving. Big full term bull calf came out in a smelly rotten mush. Cow on antib's and doing ok at the moment. Vet thought just one of those things... another one to add to my list of things that can go wrong!

 

[andybk]

have had quite a few recent shearlings one strong lamb an one small spiney backed thing , usually ends up dying , all vaxed , bolused .fed baleage so not toxo , no explanation other than spending most of winter in sht

 

[Yale]

Check out c.sordellii.not sure of spelling however its covered by bravoxin vaccine.

@neilo does this sound like it could be a possibility?

 

[midlifecrisis]

Check out c.sordellii.not sure of spelling however its covered by bravoxin vaccine.

@neilo does this sound like it could be a possibility?

Thanks the Vet mentioned this as a possibility, especially since it's not covered by Hep-P (of course, sigh). Odd that I know no-one locally covering with Bravoxin unless I brought it in via replacements?

 

[SteveHants]

Thanks the Vet mentioned this as a possibility, especially since it's not covered by Hep-P (of course, sigh). Odd that I know no-one locally covering with Bravoxin unless I brought it in via replacements?

It's worth using Bravoxin 10 and Heptavac to play to the strengths of both.
The "P" part of Heptavac doesn't last very long (4-6mos of the top of my head), so its worth using it when the threat of pneumonia is high.

So; My ewes used to get Bravoxin pre-lambing (April lambing) and the lambs would get Heptavac post weaning when I felt the threat of pneumonia would be high (depending on the weather Aug-Sept).

 

[Nithsdale]

It's worth using Bravoxin 10 and Heptavac to play to the strengths of both.
The "P" part of Heptavac doesn't last very long (4-6mos of the top of my head), so its worth using it when the threat of pneumonia is high.

So; My ewes used to get Bravoxin pre-lambing (April lambing) and the lambs would get Heptavac post weaning when I felt the threat of pneumonia would be high (depending on the weather Aug-Sept).

You'd be better just using Bravoxin10, and then buying a simple Pasturella vaccine separately, rather than using HepP

 

[Global ovine]

If these symptoms were occurring in NZ I would strongly suggest Salmonella brandenburg, however I haven't heard that this zoonosis (animal to human and visa versa) has reached the UK (yet?). In naive flocks it can take out over a quarter of the pregnancies and most ewes will die soon after aborting or being assisted. Corpses go off and stink very quickly. Personal hygiene is a must as people get very sick. Keep pregnant shepherds away from the flock. There is a vaccine to protect breeding ewes, but herd immunity appears to last for several generations once it has been found on the farm.

 

[SteveHants]

You'd be better just using Bravoxin10, and then buying a simple Pasturella vaccine separately, rather than using HepP

I never came across a vaccine that just did pasturella. Is there one?

But agree, using bravoxin for colostridials and a pasturella vaccine in pneumonia season makes sense.

 

[neilo]

I never came across a vaccine that just did pasturella. Is there one?

But agree, using bravoxin for colostridials and a pasturella vaccine in pneumonia season makes sense.

Ovipast

It doesn’t cost much less than Ovivac P though.

 

[An ancient git]

There are so many bugs about . One's first thought is usually Toxy , but often not the case . Odd ones , one can run with , but get to a worrying no. and well worth trying to find out the cause via samples etc ....

 

[midlifecrisis]

Just to give an update, I got the reports back, snips below though I can't say I understand it all.

TESTING SUMMARY
Determination Result
Salmonella Not detected
Gram Smear Cotyledon & uterus : GNB GPB GPC
MZN Chlamydia No inclusion bodies seen.
MZN Brucella No organisms typical of Brucella sp seen

I believe no signs of Toxo or Enzo.

But the Uterus culture yielded a mixed bacterial population including E. coli, Clostridium sordelli and Bacteroides species

So it looks like as @Yale suggested it's possibly due to me missing out on using Bravoxin 10 and just using Hep-P.
Not sure what to think of the E-coli unless that happens quickly once the ewe dies or is opened up.

For those interested in the costs:
Report £33
Vet fees: roughly £100 including visit fee etc.

 

[andybk]

For those interested in the costs:
Report £33
Vet fees: roughly £100 including visit fee etc.

so no real conclusion for £133 , ?

 

[midlifecrisis]

yeah hardly conclusive, but to give my Vet dues they are coming back to me after further discussion with the lab as they just received the report this afternoon. But yeah I am still not confident of avoiding the same next year... yet.

 

[Yale]

yeah hardly conclusive, but to give my Vet dues they are coming back to me after further discussion with the lab as they just received the report this afternoon. But yeah I am still not confident of avoiding the same next year... yet.

Looks like it would be prudent to go over to Bravoxin by vaccinating twice to get everything into the system.

 

[Woolless]

I've had one just as you describe today. Died about three hours after got lamb out and has blown up very quickly, which I believe is a sign of C. Sordelli?

 

[midlifecrisis]

I've had one just as you describe today. Died about three hours after got lamb out and has blown up very quickly, which I believe is a sign of C. Sordelli?

I wouldn't know for sure, but in my cases lambs were well formed just stinking at the end. ewes died typically as you say within 3 hours. I assume you don't Bravoxin then either?
What I am wondering is why this happened this year and if it's a symptom of the swamp like conditions the poor girls had to endure. Anyway live and learn.