Scouring calves

[bovine]

But thats the point, i have questioned the approach and my vet has justified the prescription for prophylactic use of Zactran on arrival for calves entering my rearing system.

Because some vets seemingly continue to prescribe in such a way, they are bringing in legislation to stop it. If everyone prescribed responsibly then there would be no need for the change in law. Unfortunately such behaviours are ingrained in both vets and farmers.

 

[bovine]

I have have just had scour go through all my Belgian Blue calves. All were over a week old. The "bug" for want of a better name worked its way through every pen over a couple of weeks. All were treated with just the crappy mole valley electrolyte (your words not mine ) aside from a couple who had high temps .All the calves recovered but it has taken the shine off them. Since all recovered it cannot be crypto or cocci so if it is not bacteria what is it that is contagious ??? Have had more serious outbreaks in past and find Synulox boluses work well. Again if it is not bacteria why are they responding to Synulox ?? Why can't calves over 7 days pick up bacteria ???

Calves have receptors in their gut for about the first 5 days of life that allow nasty strains of E.coli to bind and cause disease. I say 7 days for simplicity.

From about 7-21 days the most common causes are rotavirus and coronavirus. The clue is in the name - both are viral diseases.

Then from about 14 days crypto comes into the picture - this is a small intracellular parasite - not treated by common antibiotics. The licensed treatment is not an antibiotic.

From a minimum of 21 days cocci starts to come into play. It can't affect them very much younger due to the length of its life-cycle. You can kill with sulphonamides - but as we expose all the other bacteria to the drug, we should treat by other means (anti-coccidials).

The only bacterial cause of calf scour left is salmonella, and that has a wide antimicrobial resistance profile, Norodine is unlikely to do anything.

Just because a scouring calf gets better when given antibiotics - doesn't mean the antibiotic contributed to the recovery. When I started work everything scouring got antibiotics, some farms even used them in the calf feeding machines prophylactically. Since we stopped using them (and moved to better management of the acidosis/dehydration and kept them on milk) our survival rates have increased.

Scouring calves over a week old do not need antibiotics (unless they have an uncontrolled salmonella outbreak and then you will know and you will need to do some testing to find what you need to use).

 

[An Gof]

Because some vets seemingly continue to prescribe in such a way, they are bringing in legislation to stop it. If everyone prescribed responsibly then there would be no need for the change in law. Unfortunately such behaviours are ingrained in both vets and farmers.

So my vet is irresponsible? Guess he might take issue with that. What i do know is that they run a VERY successful practice and i have every confidence in them which is why i retain them, invest in them to produce a health plan for me and then implement the recommendations.

 

[bovine]

So my vet is irresponsible? Guess he might take issue with that. What i do know is that they run a VERY successful practice and i have every confidence in them which is why i retain them, invest in them to produce a health plan for me and then implement the recommendations.

Then answer me a question - why is legislation being passed to ban what your vet is doing?

(legislation that is backed by the major vet organisations)

 

[An Gof]

Then answer me a question - why is legislation being passed to ban what your vet is doing?

(legislation that is backed by the major vet organisations)

There's plenty of legislation passed in Europe that makes no sense at all.

 

[bovine]

There's plenty of legislation passed in Europe that makes no sense at all.

This does. A system that only works by blanket antibiotic treatment is dead in the water.

We heard people cry out when antibiotic growth promoters were banned. Little happened.

We had a bit of an outcry with Alrla and selective dry cow, but nothing major happened.

This will be exactly the same. You may have to do some things better (vaccination, lower stocking density, improve ventilation etc) but in the long run its a massive benefit. Blanket treatment over time will select for resistant bacteria - especially with a long acting pneumonia product.

I do believe it is very irresponsible prescribing - yes.

 

[An Gof]

This does. A system that only works by blanket antibiotic treatment is dead in the water.

We heard people cry out when antibiotic growth promoters were banned. Little happened.

We had a bit of an outcry with Alrla and selective dry cow, but nothing major happened.

This will be exactly the same. You may have to do some things better (vaccination, lower stocking density, improve ventilation etc) but in the long run its a massive benefit. Blanket treatment over time will select for resistant bacteria - especially with a long acting pneumonia product.

I do believe it is very irresponsible prescribing - yes.

We are following a vaccination programme for pneumonia and have taken advice, including smoke bomb tests, and made what changes we can to ventilation. I am seeking professional advice and trying to do the best job possible but it appears that my vet has a different outlook to you. However he does have an intimate understanding of my business, the problems we face and a requirement to provide advice that delivers positive results to the health AND profitability of my cattle.

 

[bovine]

That's lovely.

What are you going to do when prophylactic use of antibiotics is banned?

It's coming, mark my words.

If I was farming, I'd be doing all I could to avoid the use in this way, while you have time. Otherwise it will be thrust on you.

 

[An Gof]

That's lovely.

What are you going to do when prophylactic use of antibiotics is banned?

It's coming, mark my words.

If I was farming, I'd be doing all I could to avoid the use in this way, while you have time. Otherwise it will be thrust on you.

Well if it's coming anyway as you suggest I'll continue to take the advice of my vet in the short term and cross any new bridges that arise from regulation when I have to.
As an arable farmer it won't be the first thing that I use that is withdrawn
However the alternative approaches we implement to overcome the withdrawal of products aren't always successful, many have yet to get the measure of CSFB following the restriction placed on neonic seed treatments.

 

[William Mellor]

Unlikely to be either in my opinion. Doubt either would kill a calf that old that quick unless you had missed it scouring for ages.



I hate to say it but the first calf sound like a PI calf or one that has seen BVD infection. The ears aren't healing because of their compromised immune system. If you do a group antibody BVD test it would tell you if the calves had been infected at some point PI calves won't have antibodies though.

Will, what age are these weaned calves, how big a group and how are the other calves looking? With weaned calves on solids I wouldn't expect yellow scours (but I could be very wrong) more brown or grey.

Another article on calf scours. The first section lists the approx. ages for different types of scour.
http://www.fwi.co.uk/academy/lesson/calf-scours

Finally, do you have starlings ?

not noticed any starling but have swallows that like to nest in the roof of the calf shed. Weaning at about 10 weeks. Third one was still living before milking this morning but by the time I had finished milking it had died. Does it sound like BVD if so should I be vaccinating?

 

[worker]

Have you had a dung sample tested?

 

[William Mellor]

Have you had a dung sample tested?

No should I?

 

[worker]

No should I?

I would if I were you, the only way to know for sure what is causing the problem. Otherwise it is like working in the dark, ask your vet, it does not cost much and could save your other calves.

 

[jade35]

not noticed any starling but have swallows that like to nest in the roof of the calf shed. Weaning at about 10 weeks. Third one was still living before milking this morning but by the time I had finished milking it had died. Does it sound like BVD if so should I be vaccinating?

Will,
If it was my calves I would be expecting my vet to visit, examine all calves in the group, quick post mortem of dead calf and take samples for analysis. To have calves going down hill and dying so fast is soul destroying but you need to find out what is causing this problem and why.

With the best will in the world, nobody online can compare to someone actually examining the dead calf. The cost of this vet visit and sending samples away for analysis should be less than the cost of the dead calf and if calves continue to die, there will be considerable ongoing losses, and then you will still need to call the vet in.

If your vet is not interested in doing this then I think it is probably time to think about working with a different vet in the practice or changing vets.

 

[Farmerfallace]

Maybe it is just "drying them up" but Norodine and Rehydration works for me and with BBx calves at £350+ I'm not taking chances

I am the same I use norodine as the same and rehydration and see how they get on...also we have used yoghurt or pancake mix in the past but that mostly for young calves really..I'd give them betamox aswell

 

[Ducati899]

I use this and this only,absolute magical stuff...had a lim heifer calf last week that I thought was only going one way and if I lose one calf after taking away from the mother I've failed,corse of this and she's now as right as rain
http://www.smithshealth.co.uk/norbrook-life-aid-xtra-83-gm-x-12-sachet/

 

[Moo.girl]

I am the same I use norodine as the same and rehydration and see how they get on...also we have used yoghurt or pancake mix in the past but that mostly for young calves really..I'd give them betamox aswell

Pancake mix?

 

[Farmerfallace]

Ye flours eggs mix its lines the stomach...sounds bizarre I know but it's worked once or twice in the past..

 

[Moo.girl]

Ye flours eggs mix its lines the stomach...sounds bizarre I know but it's worked once or twice in the past..

I think I will have try this, just to see

 

[Beef farmer]

I think I will have try this, just to see

Don't get side tracked and end up making pancakes and forgetting the calf