Scouring calves

[RastaBoy]

Well said PP, We have regular vet visits but because the cost is just under £120/hour it does concentrate the mind on what you discuss with the vet and sometimes little niggles will get missed and they can sometimes add up to a bigger problem. I have learnt a lot from this forum and bovine's posts have been very useful and informative with the emphasis on animal welfare at all times. His posts may not always meet universal approval but they are the view of someone from the veterinary profession and are similar to our vets. Sometimes the truth is unpalatable but it has to be spoken.

Having just read your last post RastaBoy, I don't think you have read many of PP's posts, animal welfare and farm biosecurity are subjects she cares passionately about and are reflected in her posts. Her concerns about buying in quality replacement stock after the TB breakdown and the difficulty in sourcing high herd health status dairy cattle from the UK were thought provoking.

If you find bovine's posts are not to your taste there is always the ignore button.

I'd suggest you change vets. I have a relationship with mine that if I have a query I ring them if it can be dealt with over the phone. I've never been charged £120 an hour or any other charge.
I can say hand on heart if I'm not sure I either ask the vets advice or have them out.
No not read all PP's posts not going to either.
The admission earlier proves my point.
Animal welfare is and always will be paramount to me.
How do you know they are "the view of someone in the veterinary profession" ? He is an anonymous poster on a public forum !

 

[white_stuffed]

Don't do that - it stops the milk clotting in the abomasum. If you want to add something to milk it needs to be one of the gel products.

Also (despite all the scour formulas recommending it) NEVER EVER mix scour formula and milk.

@bovine What is the issue with mixing ordinary scour mix with the milk?
We were told by the vet to keep the calf on milk, just add scour formula powder (cheap mole valley basics) straight into the milk to keep electrolytes up. We use the effadryl tablets (on their own, never with milk) to provide the bicarb at the extra (lunch and late night) rehydration feeds.

 

[coomoo]

Had my first ballycairn Corinthian out of a comestar export this morning and she's a belter. Anyway got chance to use this new trusti tuber for her 4l colostrum. I can highly highly recommend them, guys gonna make a fortune

 

[bovine]

@bovine What is the issue with mixing ordinary scour mix with the milk?
We were told by the vet to keep the calf on milk, just add scour formula powder (cheap mole valley basics) straight into the milk to keep electrolytes up. We use the effadryl tablets (on their own, never with milk) to provide the bicarb at the extra (lunch and late night) rehydration feeds.

For the calf to digest its milk, it produces an enzyme called rennet in it's abomasum (same thing we use to make cheese). It forms curds which the calf goes on to slowly and completely digest. If we add liquid to milk (say scour formula in water with milk) then that clot won't form. This means the lactose (milk sugar) passes through into the gut. Sugar draws water with it so makes them scour - you can create an osmotic scour in a well calf by doing that.

If you add bicarbonate containing scour formula to milk then the bicarbonate stops the curd formation. I am not a great fan of the Mole scour formula, but I seem to remember it contains little or no bicarb so may actually be ok. The gel products guarantee the milk will still clot in the abomasum.

Can you take me a picture of the sachet, so I can see what is in there?

4 feeds a day, 2 with milk will still be a good system for scouring calves. If the milk clots with the MV formula then it will be great.

 

[white_stuffed]

For the calf to digest its milk, it produces an enzyme called rennet in it's abomasum (same thing we use to make cheese). It forms curds which the calf goes on to slowly and completely digest. If we add liquid to milk (say scour formula in water with milk) then that clot won't form. This means the lactose (milk sugar) passes through into the gut. Sugar draws water with it so makes them scour - you can create an osmotic scour in a well calf by doing that.

If you add bicarbonate containing scour formula to milk then the bicarbonate stops the curd formation. I am not a great fan of the Mole scour formula, but I seem to remember it contains little or no bicarb so may actually be ok. The gel products guarantee the milk will still clot in the abomasum.

Can you take me a picture of the sachet, so I can see what is in there?

4 feeds a day, 2 with milk will still be a good system for scouring calves. If the milk clots with the MV formula then it will be great.

Here it is...

 

[Holsteinfriesian90]

For the calf to digest its milk, it produces an enzyme called rennet in it's abomasum (same thing we use to make cheese). It forms curds which the calf goes on to slowly and completely digest. If we add liquid to milk (say scour formula in water with milk) then that clot won't form. This means the lactose (milk sugar) passes through into the gut. Sugar draws water with it so makes them scour - you can create an osmotic scour in a well calf by doing that.

If you add bicarbonate containing scour formula to milk then the bicarbonate stops the curd formation. I am not a great fan of the Mole scour formula, but I seem to remember it contains little or no bicarb so may actually be ok. The gel products guarantee the milk will still clot in the abomasum.

Can you take me a picture of the sachet, so I can see what is in there?

4 feeds a day, 2 with milk will still be a good system for scouring calves. If the milk clots with the MV formula then it will be great.

Thanks for the advice @bovine had a calf scouring and only used gel lite plus in the milk and he is now a lot better thankfully.

 

[white_stuffed]

I was looking for Princess Pooper's post because we've had some with slight respiratory symptoms that just won't get going sucking on the wyedale teat, right from newborn stage. Frustrating when your're not sure if they have got some scour looming...or is it something respiratory, can't seem to pin down a reason. Feed ok on the mum and for first 3 - 4 wyedale feeds, then they suddenly can't seem to face prolonged sucking, manage a few sucks and then push the teat around, maybe with a slight cough as if flooding with milk (but I've put on all new teats so should be ok). It's happened to 8 or 9 now to varying degrees, some have moved on and sucking ok, one messer will only suck if I stand next to it in the pen, one I've had to tube for days, 3 just started so I try them on the feeder and tube if they don't get enough,, one died (but it developed into calf diptheria and she had a temp. and probably let her get too dehydrated if I'm honest). I even bucket fed one last night, all very time consuming. The vet's been, taken bloods and dung snap test, proteins look ok (for the ones eligible to blood test) so colostrum good enough. I think he said there might be some rotavirus looming from the snap test but they're not scouring at this newborn stage. Vet wondering about ecoli getting in very early. The ones effected do not run a temperature initially, the one that died had lumps on both cheeks (diptheria) so guessing that was secondary to whatever was causing the initial problem. Don't think there is a magic answer...but thought I'd run it past the farming forum think-tank in case anyone had any similar experience?

I get very little scours in our calves which I put largely down to colostrum management. Ok we are small - we rear about 20 -25 calves to keep and another 60 - 65 beef crosses to sell at 5 weeks. I learned in a bad year about 8 years ago I was underestimating the extent of dehydration (the visual guide in the paper that Bovine posted is useful) and lost a couple of calves which with hindsight I was not rehydrating sufficiently. We did have the vet out that year as one was wobbly and needed iv fluids and she did treat it with antiobiotics as she suspected salmonella (it wasn't). We never use antibiotic if it is just scours (had a couple a few years ago that had respiratory symptoms as well) and just treat with electrolyte and metacam. Not lost a calf since that bad year or even had to have the vet look at any - but by trying to remain closed we have so far avoided crypto and salmonella and most years have no scours at all.

 

[llamedos]

Not sure @Princess Pooper will have received notification for above post after edit.

 

[Princess Pooper]

Not sure @Princess Pooper will have received notification for above post after edit.

Thanks

If you have had the vet out obviously go with their advice. The messing around ones - if they are not drinking much you must get more fluids into them, If they are slightly dehydrated then they just can't be bothered to drink which makes the situation worse. If they are scouring you must get even more fluids into them. Metacam will reduce any temperatures which helps them just feel better (more likely to drink) as well as which it does help with scours.
We had a bad run of calves three years ago when we had to buy in due to TB and the in calf heifers had not got the right immunity in their colostrum. Calves were a bit weaker and getting respiratory symptoms at a few days old which did not all respond to draxxin which is usually sorts any respiratory problems on our farm, a few with scours as well. The vet recommended giving all a shot of betamox even before symptoms developed in this group, as well as draxxin to affected ones - he was not really sure what was causing it and it is the only time he has recommended an ab before any problems in an individual, but a broad spectrum ab seemed to help. If they have some form of respiratory problem then the breathing probs interfere with feeding and they are more likely to get fluid in their lungs which then exacerbates it even more. Although it can take ages, bottle feeding can be a lot easler than leaving them to suck from a wydale feeder as you can move the bottle around to put the teat into their mouths. Also if they think they are having to compete with others to feed they can start 'gulping' and then they get it in their windpipe - you sometimes see it come down the nose - with the same end result.

Good luck with it, it is soul destroying having sick calves.

If you get scours probably worth getting another sample to see if rotavirus and consider vaccinating cows next year. I think this year we might have had a bit of rotavirus, a few calves scouring and reduced appetites but nothing serious, just used a couple of bottles of electrolyte and metacam on one and nothing on the others and all OK after a couple of days.

 

[jade35]

Really good post from PP



@white_stuffed If you have had a problem with calf diptheria in the past, then from our own experience, I would say that although not the original problem it is multiplying the problems for the calf. We have found that it causes slightly off colour calves to start with that want to drink, take a small amount and then give up or just drink hesitantly, may breathe faster and cough a little but not really badly enough to think it is pneumonia and may have some scouring but again not enough to be the main problem. About 7 years ago, I had a week to 10 days of hell in a very cold spell in the January before I caught a calf continually chewing without swallowing the feed and realised what the problem might be and confirmed it with the vet. It was absolutely soul destroying as I thought I was 'ok' at the job and generally have very few losses but that time there were no symptoms that stood out. I lost one calf at the time although it took several others a little while to recover and had to have another shot later because it had the squeak in the voicebox that did not respond to treatment.

If you think how you feel when you have a sore throat it is obviously the same for the calf. Speak to your vet but for us Combiclav and painkillers work well.

Having said we have very few losses I almost lost a friesian heifer the other week who had scours and didn't respond to the usual treatments. The first time that I have done it but we took her to the vets on a Sunday morning and she was put on a drip and kept in overnight. Picked up the next morning, the difference was amazing and she has continued to do well so if I had similar concerns about a calf in the future I would not hesitate to do the same again.

 

[white_stuffed]

Oh my goodness that is uncanny @jade35, the symptoms you describe are identical to what we have experienced, even down to having one euthanased last week because it had a voice box problem, she sounded like a goose, quite distressing to hear. I didn't mention that one in the first post because i thought it wasn't connected to everything else going on, i assumed it had injured itself or was deformed in some way. So it looks like it might all be diptheria related but did you have the classic diptheria lumps on the side of the jaw? We only saw that on the one which died but I think you can get a laryngeal version? Like @Princess Pooper, we are having to give antibiotics (bimotrim) to anything that gives us any concern, even if its not developed into a specific issue, which goes against the grain. But I will speak to the vet about combiclav if that was effective for you. Re painkillers, I find a shot of recocam helps but I know you're not really supposed to use in calves under 7 days and ours are struggling from newborn. I took a video (I'm not clever enough to post the video but i took it to demonstate how frustrating its been) of one 4 day old calf frolicking around the pen with her tail in the air like a loony but bring her up to feed and she wouldn't even contemplate it. I tubed her for days, she's ok now, still a slow feeder though. It does make me think there is a localised mouth/throat issue. Thanks so much, princess and jade, it's good to compare notes and to know I'm not the only one that gets so preoccupied with poorly calves. (And thank you @llamedos for bumping my post.)

 

[jade35]

Since we had that first outbreak we seem to have flareups every so often and have found that the lumps are generally a slightly later symptom although we are now always on the lookout for anything that looks uneven in the jawline.

Have to say that any calf that appears to be aimlessly chewing is watched very carefully.

http://www.thecattlesite.com/diseaseinfo/204/calf-diphtheria-necrobacillosis/

https://www.farmacy.co.uk/products/128-combiclav-injection-100ml

 

[white_stuffed]

@Jade, do you have/vaccinate for ibr? We do and I believe it could have an impact on the symptoms I'm seeing, @bovine might be able to shed some light on it. It doesnt change much, just keep up the vaccination programme and as always plenty of colostrum