Self propelled to Trailed

[Hjwise]

710’s all year round on a trailed running down the same as an SP???
Turning circle of a trailed similar to that of an SP???

I know people like to justify their decisions, but there is a limit.
Once a ‘spare’ tractor is put on a busy sprayer, is no longer spare - and should be costed as such.

 

[Clive]

I get that Clive.

My point is that your tractor will wear out quicker if it is spraying on top of all the other jobs, so will need changing quicker, and hence cost more.
Surely some of the capital requirement for the tractor needs to be accounted for in the sprayer costings, just as it would for any other implement, otherwise what is paying for it?
Will you put a loader on it and get rid of a forklift too, and say you've saved a fortune, getting rid of a 70grand telehandler for a 10grand loader to go on a tractor that 'you have anyway'?

It's not long since you were claiming owning a Bateman sprayer was a 'no brainer' - trailed sprayers were for peasants, not professional contract farmers, apparently. How things change!

It’s costs Ing extra R&M but still only doing “average” hours of circa 1000 pa - our policy is to changes at 5 or 10k hours depending on deals at the time or yr 5 or yr 10 - so its doesn’t really make much difference in depreciation terms
\
the real extra cost is the extra hours causing extra R&M but you would have those bills if you had ab self prop as well (more so IME as self props are much weaker than tractors !)

 

[Spud]

Buy far the biggest cost of any tractor or self prop is depreciation

I dont think adding the extra hours to my tractor significantly increases depreciation - its does increase R&M costs you would have those `R&M costs with a self prop so its the significant depreciation you are really (mostly) saving

There is also the capital cost - the cost of havIng that extra 150k tied up in another machine cash or finance that money has a cost

I agree.

Let's say (for example, purely hypothetical figures) that your tractor reached 5000hrs change time in 6yrs pre spraying, and now hits the same hours in 4years.

If it your tractor cost say £130k new, and was worth say 50k with 5000hrs at 6yo pre spraying, it's probably worth 60k with the same hours at 4yo now. But your capital per year has increased, by about 30%. Not insignificant at all.

130-50k=80k/6yrs=£13,333 per year
130-60k=70k/4yrs=£17,500 per year

 

[Clive]

710’s all year round on a trailed running down the same as an SP???
Turning circle of a trailed similar to that of an SP???

I know people like to justify their decisions, but there is a limit.
Once a ‘spare’ tractor is put on a busy sprayer, is no longer spare - and should be costed as such.

We have plenty to do and do its all with x2 724's - between the tractors they have time to spray as well as cultivate (a bit), drill, cart, spread and everything else they do

I do this to make money, not impress people, keep machinery manufacturer in business or make the countryside look pretty but to my easy their sis nothing excessive or wrong with a 36m 710 tramiline much and its certainly a very cheap approach for us

You have to consider the bigger picture re-fixed cost, it's because of such policy I can get away with such low HP /ha and labour etc

Its a really nice set up and is doing a really nice job IMO without costing us a fortune - I honestly could not afford a Horsch self-propelled to do almost the same job as this ..........

 

[Clive]

I agree.

Let's say (for example, purely hypothetical figures) that your tractor reached 5000hrs change time in 6yrs pre spraying, and now hits the same hours in 4years.

If it your tractor cost say £130k new, and was worth say 50k with 5000hrs at 6yo pre spraying, it's probably worth 60k with the same hours at 4yo now. But your capital per year has increased, by about 30%. Not insignificant at all.

130-50k=80k/6yrs=£13,333 per year
130-60k=70k/4yrs=£17,500 per year

Whilst I do I also agree think when your tractor is still in average hours a few extra hours doesn't really affect the price much - so as long as I'm still circa 5k hrs at 5yrs and 10k hrs at 10 years I think the value of the used tractor would be similar as if they were 1500hrs or so lower hours at those ages really
Its only when you start putting hours on well above average that extra hours start to hit used values significantly from what I see


Interestingly we were putting 800-1000hrs on the old Bateman a year yet we are only putting an extra 300 on each of our 724'a (so 600hrs) - that shows the extra work rate we are getting for the trailed in part due to the wider booms and bigger tank but mostly the extra road speed and faster fill times I think

 

[Clive]

Another big advantage of trailed over self prop not mentioned is back-up

if we have a power unit problem we just swap over to the other tractor if a self prop has a power unit problem you are down until its fixed

On time-critical jobs like spraying that's worth consideration and does have a value on farms that have more than 1 tractor available

 

[Spud]

Whilst I agree think when your tractor is still in average hours a few extra hours doesn't really affect the price much - so as long as I'm still circa 5k hrs at 5yrs and 10k hrs at 10 years I think the value of the used tractor would be similar as if they were 1500hrs or so lower hours at those ages really
Its only when you start putting hours on well above average that extra hours start to hit used values significantly from what I see


Interestingly we were putting 800-1000hrs on the old Bateman a year yet we are only putting an extra 300 on each of or 724'a (so 600hrs) - that shows the extra work rate we are getting for the trailed in part due to the wider booms and bigger tank but mostly the extra road speed and faster fill times I think

Ten years with an extra 300/yr will be 3000more in ten years - that WILL affect its value.

If I'd suggested you swap your Bateman for two trailed sprayers a few years ago you'd of called me crazy.

Why you think you'd all the time be changing wheels is a mystery, between say March and August in combinable crops, what job can't you do on 20.8's?

I guess we're all different.

 

[Spud]

Another big advantage of trailed over self prop not mentioned is back-up

if we have a power unit problem we just swap over to the other tractor if a self prop has a power unit problem you are down until its fixed

On time-critical jobs like spraying that's worth consideration and does have a value on farms that have more than 1 tractor available

Really? You say that like it's something new!!

Us long time trailed sprayer owners were telling you that when Bateman sp's were a 'no brainer'

You haven't reinvented the wheel you know.

 

[Clive]

Ten years with an extra 300/yr will be 3000more in ten years - that WILL affect its value.

If I'd suggested you swap your Bateman for two trailed sprayers a few years ago you'd of called me crazy.

Why you think you'd all the time be changing wheels is a mystery, between say March and August in combinable crops, what job can't you do on 20.8's?

I guess we're all different.

Yes but in our case we will still be selling a 10k hrs tractor at 10 years old - without the spraying, it would have been a 7-8k hrs tractor - I doubt the value is MUCH different at that point as most expect an average of circa 1000hr a year

It might make some difference but at 10years old I think condition and history would be more relevant to most buyers than a few extra hours

even if you did end up on a shorter tractor replacement cycles due to the extra use its would still look cheap re the extra cost of a self prop and you get the benefit of newer tractors through other operations that some would see as a value

 

[Clive]

Really? You say that like it's something new!!

Us long time trailed sprayer owners were telling you that when Bateman sp's were a 'no brainer'

You haven't reinvented the wheel you know.

I didn't claim to have invented anything ???

just noticed no one had made that point in this thread yet? and as you agree it's certainly a positive for the trailed argument


Goalposts moved significantly since I last bought a Bateman - the gap to trailed was less than it is today and back then we did do root crop spray contracting where a self prop was specified by the grower

 

[Hjwise]

We have plenty to do and do its all with x2 724's - between the tractors they have time to spray as well as cultivate (a bit), drill, cart, spread and everything else they do

I do this to make money, not impress people, keep machinery manufacturer in business or make the countryside look pretty but to my easy their sis nothing excessive or wrong with a 36m 710 tramiline much and its certainly a very cheap approach for us

You have to consider the bigger picture re-fixed cost, it's because of such policy I can get away with such low HP /ha and labour etc

Its a really nice set up and is doing a really nice job IMO without costing us a fortune - I honestly could not afford a Horsch self-propelled to do almost the same job as this ..........

Horses for courses as always. I have a small farm that doesn’t warrant a second tractor, but do contact spraying. My preference is a s/h SP as taking the one tractor on and off jobs to spray is a significant hassle.
I must admit, I’d take those tramlines rather than change wheels. Do you grow very short OSR?

 

[Clive]

Horses for courses as always. I have a small farm that doesn’t warrant a second tractor, but do contact spraying. My preference is a s/h SP as taking the one tractor on and off jobs to spray is a significant hassle.
I must admit, I’d take those tramlines rather than change wheels. Do you grow very short OSR?

we grow osr (might not in the future however). Don’t pre harvest glyphosate and rarely use fungicides on it, at harvest last year you could hardly see the tramlines


I really don’t think changing wheels is worth the cost and time losses to us, tramlines would still be put in on 710’s in autumnal most do and the smallest row crops we could go to whilst still maintaining any decent road speed and field pressure for a he by unit would be something like a 480 that doesn’t really offer a massive saving in run down crop

it’s surprising how much crop does survive the tramlines art not 710mm wide come harvest that’s for sure

 

[Chae1]

we grow osr (might not in the future however). Don’t pre harvest glyphosate and rarely use fungicides on it, at harvest last year you could hardly see the tramlines


I really don’t think changing wheels is worth the cost and time losses to us, tramlines would still be put in on 710’s in autumnal most do and the smallest row crops we could go to whilst still maintaining any decent road speed and field pressure for a he by unit would be something like a 480 that doesn’t really offer a massive saving in run down crop

it’s surprising how much crop does survive the tramlines art not 710mm wide come harvest that’s for sure

Could you take some pictures at harvest time?

My rowcrops are 340s and nothing grows where I trample it down. I've no headland tramline because I don't want to double a half run when drilling. I'm just normally through it twice.

 

[Spud]

710’s all year round on a trailed running down the same as an SP???
Turning circle of a trailed similar to that of an SP???

I know people like to justify their decisions, but there is a limit.
Once a ‘spare’ tractor is put on a busy sprayer, is no longer spare - and should be costed as such.

I don't get why people think spraying is a 'spare tractor' job. The sprayer has a longer season than pretty much everything except the forklift here - for the peak of the season from may to October it's on a frontline tractor, the rest of the time (when said frontline tractor is on more tractor critical work) it's on one of the older, less used, backup tractors.
It's a critical job, both re timeliness and operator safety, and should be treated as such.

 

[Lexion1000]

I don't get why people think spraying is a 'spare tractor' job. The sprayer has a longer season than pretty much everything except the forklift here - for the peak of the season from may to October it's on a frontline tractor, the rest of the time (when said frontline tractor is on more tractor critical work) it's on one of the older, less used, backup tractors.
It's a critical job, both re timeliness and operator safety, and should be treated as such.

Exactly. The op says he’s going to be doing 4000acres fert and spraying. That’s got to be a minimum of 1300 hours a year of spraying. If you ve got a spare tractor kicking around that can do an extra 1300 hrs a year you probably have too many tractors.

So for the purpose of pricing up an sp or trailed on that acreage the tractor price has to be in there too. IMO

 

[Clive]

Exactly. The op says he’s going to be doing 4000acres fert and spraying. That’s got to be a minimum of 1300 hours a year of spraying. If you ve got a spare tractor kicking around that can do an extra 1300 hrs a year you probably have too many tractors.

So for the purpose of pricing up an sp or trailed on that acreage the tractor price has to be in there too. IMO

it’s not 1300hrs a year of work for the right machine , or certainly shouldn’t be

 

[Chae1]

it’s not 1300hrs a year of work for the right machine , or certainly shouldn’t be

Not if he fills it with the pto and tractor turned off, like you suggested.

 

[Spud]

Yes but in our case we will still be selling a 10k hrs tractor at 10 years old - without the spraying, it would have been a 7-8k hrs tractor - I doubt the value is MUCH different at that point as most expect an average of circa 1000hr a year

It might make some difference but at 10years old I think condition and history would be more relevant to most buyers than a few extra hours

even if you did end up on a shorter tractor replacement cycles due to the extra use its would still look cheap re the extra cost of a self prop and you get the benefit of newer tractors through other operations that some would see as a value

Now that has to be fag packet justification at its finest. You try buying a 7000hr tractor for 10,000hr money and tell me there's 'very little difference' in the price.
I think you must have a different calculator to the rest of us mere peasants.

Relying on less tractors increases risk.
Your 'few extra hours' is actually about 40% more hours. No one is goking to ignore that when buying a tractor.
One can make figures tell the story that one wishes to see, as you have demonstrated.
You are right though, even if one were to take a fair actual cost of the tractor into account, it would still be cheaper than a self propelled monster.

 

[Clive]

Now that has to be fag packet justification at its finest. You try buying a 7000hr tractor for 10,000hr money and tell me there's 'very little difference' in the price.
I think you must have a different calculator to the rest of us mere peasants.

Relying on less tractors increases risk.
Your 'few extra hours' is actually about 40% more hours. No one is goking to ignore that when buying a tractor.
One can make figures tell the story that one wishes to see, as you have demonstrated.
You are right though, even if one were to take a fair actual cost of the tractor into account, it would still be cheaper than a self propelled monster.

I prefer spread sheets to fag packets and use a lot if them pretty successfully, over the years my forecast costings have never worked out far off the mark

at 10years old I doubt a Fendt 724 with 7000hrs is worth a lot more than the same tractor with10k hours really ? At that Ag I believe condition and history would be higher priority for a most buyers

im not saying there would be no difference but I’m saying any difference would be fairly small vs the extra depreciation you would incur owning a 300k self propelled over 10 years or 6000hrs

 

[Romeogolf]

I appreciate what you’re saying Clive, and whilst I cannot admit to agreeing with you unanimously, I am more than happy to appreciate that you have worked out what works for you.

One point to mention, however, is that whilst you quite rightly dismiss comparing a new trailed against a used SP as silly, you are effectively the one bringing a new trailed into the equation by using your experience with the Horsch as leverage. Given that they haven’t been out long, and presuming they are so amazing that there are few, if any used machines available, you are in effect inferring that this equation applies to new machines. I am not.

I am curious to know, although I expect we will never know the truth of this, if you would continue to be such an ambassador for trailed machines if it was not a Horsch you were running.
If you are happy to concede - and I would wager it is the case - that the technology and engineering in the Horsch is a large contributor to why you find it a ‘no brainer’, then your whole argument rests solely on the premise that a trailed machine must be a Horsch, ergo you are really steering the OP’s question into a brand debate.