Stupid question about sheep no. 34467

[Tim W]

If you're going to tup ewe lambs,you have to keep them separate from the rest of the flock in order to ensure correct nutrition.

My ewe lambs get tupped separately but usually end up in with the ewes for the 2nd & 3rd trimester ----seems to work fine

 

[Ysgythan]

https://www.cabdirect.org/cabdirect/abstract/19361404369

I knew I'd seen it. Obviously in flocks with a draft at 4 years policy it makes no odds, but they tend to be the hill farms where ewe lambs won't get to weight to breed anyway.

Edit - link doesn't work

 

[Tim W]

Aye, but the lambs from mature ewes will be better than hoggs lambs and there will be much more breeding value to those females if you keep your own replacements or sell breeding females. Breeding from hoggs lambs as lambs is a recipe for miniatures...

I would think that the lambs from ewe lambs should be of higher genetic potential (if your breeding program is headed in the right direction)
My experience shows that lambs from ewe lambs are not necessarily smaller, in fact many of them have better growth rates than those from ewes precisely because they come from higher genetic merit stock --- we breed for mature size by measuring this trait , recording and selecting accordingly

 

[Ysgythan]

That's a theory I've never subscribed to. I'd much rather keep the daughter of a proven ewe who outlasted her teeth and reared well without mastitis/prolapsing/Caesarians than one of an unproven ewe lamb, especially since we don't buy females, but do buy ram lambs.

Then again I appreciate your goals are about breed development, whereas we are trying to get out a consistent pen of NSA sale lambs.

 

[neilo]

My ewe lambs get tupped separately but usually end up in with the ewes for the 2nd & 3rd trimester ----seems to work fine

My ewe lambs are run separately from weaning up until they get turned into the lambing paddocks. They are managed in exactly the same way through pregnancy, but get a bit of extra care in terms of having primary vaccinations and worming (if necessary) and not being kept quite as tight in early pregnancy.
For lambing, they get tightly stocked in my single paddock, then shed into better grass once lambed. They stay with my single ewes, set stocked on old parkland grass until weaning. They get treated exactly the same as my ewes with singles. It seems to work and it's simple.

 

[hindmaist]

Every day's a school day.

 

[GTB]

You don't want an ewe lamb rearing twins though ideally.

 

[Ysgythan]

There's another aspect to all of this we all seem to be avoiding - ewe lambs are f**king mental and trying to lamb them gets on my f**king tits...

 

[GTB]

There's another aspect to all of this we all seem to be avoiding - ewe lambs are fudgeing mental and trying to lamb them gets on my fudgeing tits...

Not if you have the right breed.

 

[Ysgythan]

Not if you have the right breed.

Tell me what breed of ewe lamb is:

• Easy to catch if you need to lamb her
• If you manage to catch her, doesn't f**k off as soon as you let her go abandoning her lamb
• If she does lamb herself doesn't push her guts out
• Doesn't bring twins and two days later decide one is devil spawn and must be butted to death

I'll freely admit most...all...of my experience is with ewe lambs that should not have been in lamb, that never come in to a shed and lamb out in April/May, but these have been everything from Welsh to Suffolk Cross to Halfbreds to Texel cross. Tups would have been Suffolk, Texel and...indeterminate...

 

[Tim W]

Functional maternal sheep ----

• Easy to catch if you need to lamb her----2 assisted out of 300 last year is not too much stress for me
• If you manage to catch her, doesn't fudge off as soon as you let her go abandoning her lamb ---if you have to catch 1 or 2 then you can pen them if you need to
• If she does lamb herself doesn't push her guts out --- not been a problem I have encountered (yet)
• Doesn't bring twins and two days later decide one is devil spawn and must be butted to death --- few twins every year but in the grand scheme of things it's not a big deal ---quite a few will rear twins

 

[jemski]

Tell me what breed of ewe lamb is:

• Easy to catch if you need to lamb her
• If you manage to catch her, doesn't fudge off as soon as you let her go abandoning her lamb
• If she does lamb herself doesn't push her guts out
• Doesn't bring twins and two days later decide one is devil spawn and must be butted to death

I'll freely admit most...all...of my experience is with ewe lambs that should not have been in lamb, that never come in to a shed and lamb out in April/May, but these have been everything from Welsh to Suffolk Cross to Halfbreds to Texel cross. Tups would have been Suffolk, Texel and...indeterminate...

Don't want to sound smug, but mine. Even the dozen stores that shouldn't have been in lamb last year but were and lambed out in a muddy field, loaded into the trailer in the middle of the field with no stress. I find them a doddle to lamb and really enjoy them. But I do select my replacements very heavily on maternal traits.

 

[Man_in_black]

Don't want to sound smug, but mine. Even the dozen stores that shouldn't have been in lamb last year but were and lambed out in a muddy field, loaded into the trailer in the middle of the field with no stress. I find them a doddle to lamb and really enjoy them. But I do select my replacements very heavily on maternal traits.

Snap with the smugness. None of my lleyn ewe lambs were harder work or worse mothers than shearling maidens.

 

[Coximus]

I select my ewe lambs in Sept, Based on the 2/3 of expected final weight (40kg, due to be 60 at maturity) - they are then separated off until tupping on 1st nov, and placed on my best grass fields, and then selected again end of oct - only the ones weighing 45kg + go to the tup, the rest sold fat (showing that they are still growing well).
They are kept on my best ground (which isnt that much better than the worst), so giving them a chance to maintain growth rates, most weigh around 48-50kg straight after lambing.
Any that struggle, need intervention, etc are culled.
Any that rear rear twins but struggle, but are otherwise fine animals, are either sold fat or sold as breeders - so long as no other issues were present.

Any that have a single in year 2, are culled - I want twins as often as possible.
I only put food and fodder out if the weather is bad, and around lambing as I have limited space and builder area, and like to lamb outside, but in paddocks so I get get to handle, ring, mark and check the ewes - 3 days after lambing they go back out to grazing.

I find this system works well, and is gradually resulting in a better performing flock, and as a side effect, by selecting the fastest growing lambs, but keeping the mature size the same, ive noticed my "ready date" when lambs can start to be sold off grass has crept forwards from 15-18 weeks to a 12-16 week window in my homebred and home selected ewes. As alot of my ground isnt great, that adds an extra selection pressure, and one some people here have suggested I actively select for - IE only choose replacements that meet my specification, AND came off the poorer ground.

 

[Man_in_black]

I select my ewe lambs in Sept, Based on the 2/3 of expected final weight (40kg, due to be 60 at maturity) - they are then separated off until tupping on 1st nov, and placed on my best grass fields, and then selected again end of oct - only the ones weighing 45kg + go to the tup, the rest sold fat (showing that they are still growing well).
They are kept on my best ground (which isnt that much better than the worst), so giving them a chance to maintain growth rates, most weigh around 48-50kg straight after lambing.
Any that struggle, need intervention, etc are culled.
Any that rear rear twins but struggle, but are otherwise fine animals, are either sold fat or sold as breeders - so long as no other issues were present.

Any that have a single in year 2, are culled - I want twins as often as possible.
I only put food and fodder out if the weather is bad, and around lambing as I have limited space and builder area, and like to lamb outside, but in paddocks so I get get to handle, ring, mark and check the ewes - 3 days after lambing they go back out to grazing.

I find this system works well, and is gradually resulting in a better performing flock, and as a side effect, by selecting the fastest growing lambs, but keeping the mature size the same, ive noticed my "ready date" when lambs can start to be sold off grass has crept forwards from 15-18 weeks to a 12-16 week window in my homebred and home selected ewes. As alot of my ground isnt great, that adds an extra selection pressure, and one some people here have suggested I actively select for - IE only choose replacements that meet my specification, AND came off the poorer ground.

That sounds like a good commercial blueprint.

 

[Ysgythan]

Hang on, there was never anything wrong with the maternal ability of their sisters lambing as gimmers, or indeed them if we still had them. I suggest you try to tell a man who keeps Welsh that his ewes aren't maternal...

 

[jemski]

Hang on, there was never anything wrong with the maternal ability of their sisters lambing as gimmers, or indeed them if we still had them. I suggest you try to tell a man who keeps Welsh that his ewes aren't maternal...

Well, if it's not the sheep then it's you... [emoji12][emoji51][emoji56]

 

[Ysgythan]

It must be. Me and my insistence on having good stock, not any old sh1!s spat out...

Back to the OP, if you've got Jacobs they should lamb as ewe lambs on a good place. If they don't do that easily on the place you've got I'd probably give it a miss. As to the Wilts, they're famous for being slow maturing, in all ways, so why give yourself the potential grief.

 

[Pasty]

It must be. Me and my insistence on having good stock, not any old sh1!s spat out...

Back to the OP, if you've got Jacobs they should lamb as ewe lambs on a good place. If they don't do that easily on the place you've got I'd probably give it a miss. As to the Wilts, they're famous for being slow maturing, in all ways, so why give yourself the potential grief.

Plenty of good grass at the mo as under-stocked. Just wondering where we go in years to come as I build numbers. I wanted shedding sheep, hence the Wilts but got these Jacobs and am strangely drawn to them. They just look right on my place. Dunno if I'll feel the same in summer. I expect after all my flights of fancy I'll end up paying Tim a pile of cash for some good Exlanas. But you have to start somewhere.

 

[scholland]

https://www.cabdirect.org/cabdirect/abstract/19361404369

I knew I'd seen it. Obviously in flocks with a draft at 4 years policy it makes no odds, but they tend to be the hill farms where ewe lambs won't get to weight to breed anyway.

Edit - link doesn't work

I can't view the document but i subverted of the sheep were just "similar" breeding or identical? As in a same way bred batch split in half or the same breed of sheep.
If they weren't very closely related then surely genetics could also make their teeth fall out faster? Had a texel ram here in the past whose daughters didn't last at all due to their teeth.