Tb are we(the English) winning the war?

[matthew]

We can't just use the science we like.
It is proven that cattle to cattle transmission is far easier than badger to cattle.
TB is very easily transmitted which is why it is a problem in poor slums for people.

But it takes a badger to place it in the herd most of the time. Again farmers are still not immune to blame here because they will turn up to a farm sale 10 days after that farms first clear status in 6 years and spread the cows all over the country.

But badgers are a pivotal pin in a tool box of many choices available to us to control tb.

I have only recently learnt though it's obvious when pointed out that the use of rock salt in an infected herd is an extremely bad idea.

cattle to cattle transmission in the field is difficult. The amount of cfu (colony forming units) found in cattle lesions, even big lesions, is minute. While even ‘milliary’ tiny lesions in badgers are hooching. For example, up to 300,000 cfu have been counted in just 1ml of badger urine, and they void up to 30 ml with each incontinent squirt.
So we asked how many cfu s to infect a cow?

Just 1 a single one, to infect a calf, and around 70 cfu s for a cow.
See our PQ answers:

How much is enough?

When people (who should know better) talk about vaccinating badgers, because this over time 'reduces transmission opportunities', what exac...

bovinetb.blogspot.com

Not so sure about the ease of cattle to cattle , for us 1600 head at highest point of lock down over 30 year down , all cattle direct to slaughter 4 animals found at slaughter with btb lesions 1 of them positive, 30% of red deer of Exmoor have btb, @matthew will have the NI tb information when cattle were shut In sheds and transmission was very low, most of the new research seem to be mathematical modelling not hard data, we were Involved many years ago with research with Warwick University, seemed In the end they were just using mathematical modelling to stop culling, not btb

The Irish did indeed keep reactor animals in small groups, sharing air, water and feed and failed to create spread. So they repeated the exercise for twelve months (previously six) and most still did not transmit.
Then there was the £28m Pathman project which was equally unsuccessful in creating spread from reactor animaks.

We have been clear for 12 months .Before that always in and out of restrictions .Lots more deer about especially fallow .They don't seem to spread it to cattle the same if at all .

Deer have similar lesion characteristics to cattle. But sharing feed is a possible transmission route. As in the white tailed deer in .Michigan, who shared molassed corn buckets with cattle. A practise now made illegal.

 

[lazy farmer]

cattle to cattle transmission in the field is difficult. The amount of cfu (colony forming units) found in cattle lesions, even big lesions, is minute. While even ‘milliary’ tiny lesions in badgers are hooching. For example, up to 300,000 cfu have been counted in just 1ml of badger urine, and they void up to 30 ml with each incontinent squirt.
So we asked how many cfu s to infect a cow?

Just 1 a single one, to infect a calf, and around 70 cfu s for a cow.
See our PQ answers:

How much is enough?

When people (who should know better) talk about vaccinating badgers, because this over time 'reduces transmission opportunities', what exac...

bovinetb.blogspot.com

The Irish did indeed keep reactor animals in small groups, sharing air, water and feed and failed to create spread. So they repeated the exercise for twelve months (previously six) and most still did not transmit.
Then there was the £28m Pathman project which was equally unsuccessful in creating spread from reactor animaks.



Deer have similar lesion characteristics to cattle. But sharing feed is a possible transmission route. As in the white tailed deer in .Michigan, who shared molassed corn buckets with cattle. A practise now made illegal.

@matthew where do you think we are on this journey? Is there reason for hope if the politicians keep out of the way ?

 

[Princess Pooper]

The best form of badger culling is gassing the sett and then digger to fill in ,as too stop other badgers moving in .its what they did in the past and it worked a treat ,easy and pain free for everyone involved and it guarantees to get every badger in a sett

Trouble is you have to have permission of the person whose land it is on. None of 'Our' badger setts are actually on our land, one is in an old sand pit adjacent to the railway line and owned by Network Rail and the other is on the outside of our boundary hedge on the edge of a B road where there is a large verge and a bit of scrub. The nearest entrance in both setts is about 6 ft from our fields. We can cull them with traps and shooting, but we couldn't gas them.

 

[devonbeef]

Trouble is you have to have permission of the person whose land it is on. None of 'Our' badger setts are actually on our land, one is in an old sand pit adjacent to the railway line and owned by Network Rail and the other is on the outside of our boundary hedge on the edge of a B road where there is a large verge and a bit of scrub. The nearest entrance in both setts is about 6 ft from our fields. We can cull them with traps and shooting, but we couldn't gas them.

defra should be doing the gassing on who evers land its on

 

[jimmer]

Not working around here
More restricted holdings than ever
Royally hacked off with it
Jabbed this morning , again

 

[Jsmith2211]

Very bad TB going round here, friend of mine who's a TB tester said its the deer spreading it as much as the badgers. Everyone seems to be going down with it. So no... I dont think we are "winning the war"

Get rid of TB testing. Vaccinate cattle. Job done.

 

[Ffermer Bach]

Very bad TB going round here, friend of mine who's a TB tester said its the deer spreading it as much as the badgers. Everyone seems to be going down with it. So no... I dont think we are "winning the war"

Get rid of TB testing. Vaccinate cattle. Job done.

haven't I read that the UK has more Deer than since 1066

 

[sidjon]

haven't I read that the UK has more Deer than since 1066

Not surprised, venison is worth bugger all, so little interest in stalking, currently now just doing pest control not stalking, just to try to reduce number's

 

[matthew]

@matthew where do you think we are on this journey? Is there reason for hope if the politicians keep out of the way ?

In a better place than 20 years ago. But still not good.

Vaccination of either badgers or cattle is a unicorn’s pipe dream.

In the face of the enormous challenge cattle face from badgers, they won’t work. (Amount of cfu bacteria ) and that observation came from an ex prof. @ Porton Down. That despite a determined crew torturing the vax in an attempt to flak culling of the most infectious wildlife host on the planet.

 

[dave6470]

In N Ireland, Daera did a 5 year test Badgers for TB and cull if infected or vaccinate and release, the findings of the whole survey came back as badgers spread TB to cattle and vis versa..(something we knew without spending millions and for years) but at least it’s a scientific conclusion.

So as a follow up to their study they are choosing to go down the route of doing nothing (not because of eco mentalists for a change) But if they eradicate TB there would be no jobs for the Vets (private money tree or Daera one)

We’ve eradicated Brucellosis here, I even got an email thanking me for my part, at 9:05 one morning, at 9:15 I had another email asking if I’d like to take voluntary redundancy, from 30 Animal Health and Welfare inspectors in one office, I think there’s 3 now

They where on my neighbours farm for that test what a joke and waste of money Took 5 men dressed in hasmat suits to trap a badger
They traped 2 on his farm on one day but only tested one of them
which turned out to have tb
he new one of the vets very well the vet told him they could only test one as they did not want to get to many positives

 

[BuskhillFarm]

They where on my neighbours farm for that test what a joke and waste of money Took 5 men dressed in hasmat suits to trap a badger
They traped 2 on his farm on one day but only tested one of them
which turned out to have tb
he new one of the vets very well the vet told him they could only test one as they did not want to get to many positives

The one down in Rathfriland was done properly, lot of interesting things did come from it, just a pity nothing serious was done.

 

[bactosoil]

While badgers are very much involved in the spread of Btb I still find it amazing that soil is not looked at more as a factor too , if the bacterium becomes dormant and enters say a macrophage cell cell it can become
virtually undetectable( for possibly decades) to modern testing in soil and only when certain conditions/triggers come along will it wake .I have had a number of conversations with several Professors of microbiology looking at Btb and not one so far will dissagree .
Risk scoring grazing land IMHO should be another part of dealing with Btb

 

[jerseycowsman]

Latest accredited official statistics on tuberculosis (TB) in cattle in Great Britain - quarterly

Quarterly statistics on tuberculosis (TB) in cattle in Great Britain.

www.gov.uk

Not sure when these figures became available. But given the good news for English farmers I’m surprised
how little news this has made. Some of the falls are quite dramatic. Especially when compared to Wales and to a much lesser extent “TB free” Scotland.
Is this proof that the culls have worked? I would suggest yes but the data doesn’t cover this question.

Yes, as Labour have backed and said they are not going to stop the cull, like they were going to. Science has won over emotion and hate!

 

[jerseycowsman]

bull sh!t get your facts right before telling untruth crap.
there just as many non nfu members as members contributing both physically and financially to the culls.
If you cant write correctly, truthfully and factually then better if you don't write anything .

Oh so who runs it then, not the nfu and all their staff coordinating the helpline and number crunching etc?

 

[tinsheet]

Not an nfu fan here, but they where bloody brilliant in regards getting the cull off the ground here and the running of it (West Somerset pilot) it has made a huge difference to tb in the area.
Dead deer is the main problem now. Our most recent breakdown was a cow who outwintered on kale, we came across a red deer carcass half way through the winter. 99% certain it died of tb, lots of cases in the deer.
sad for the wildlife.

 

[Ffermer Bach]

Yes, as Labour have backed and said they are not going to stop the cull, like they were going to. Science has won over emotion and hate!

Labour in power in Wales and the same Labour party isn’t going to cull here, remember they are trying out in Wales what they want to do in the rest of the UK!

 

[ollie989898]

Not surprised, venison is worth bugger all, so little interest in stalking, currently now just doing pest control not stalking, just to try to reduce number's

There must be no end of people on forums trying to find places to shoot stuff. The UK should be training amateur snipers into the hundreds of thousands. The trouble is you get wannabes buy up the shooting rights on land and then are never seen except once in a blue moon. There are too many deer in the UK.

 

[ollie989898]

That alone tells you how bad the situation had got regardless of tb.

And the cull should have been instigated long ago for the sake of the badger population let alone livestock.

 

[ollie989898]

While badgers are very much involved in the spread of Btb I still find it amazing that soil is not looked at more as a factor too , if the bacterium becomes dormant and enters say a macrophage cell cell it can become
virtually undetectable( for possibly decades) to modern testing in soil and only when certain conditions/triggers come along will it wake .I have had a number of conversations with several Professors of microbiology looking at Btb and not one so far will dissagree .
Risk scoring grazing land IMHO should be another part of dealing with Btb

TB enters macrophages in the body to hide from the host.

It cannot survive in soil this way. But TB is though to be able to survive in soil in at least some circumstances and remain infectious after a prolonged period of time. 12 months in laboratory incubated conditions, other sources suggest 3 months in natural weather conditions. How likely infection via this medium is, however, something else entirely.

Long-term survival of tuberculosis complex mycobacteria in soil

While there is evidence for the persistence of Mycobacterium bovis in soil, there are no reports for the other Mycobacterium tuberculosis complex (MTC) mycobacteria. Here, soil was inoculated with 108 c.f.u. g−1 M. tuberculosis, M. bovis and M. canettii and subcultured monthly for 12 months. The...

www.microbiologyresearch.org

Discussion

Here, we observed that three MTC species can survive in soil for 12 months. This observation was verified by the fact that the negative control plates, which were incubated in parallel with inoculated plates, remained sterile throughout the 12-month duration of the experiment, indicating that the growth of MTC mycobacteria reported herein did not merely result from contamination of the soil prior to or after experimental inoculation. Moreover, all of the colonies were conclusively identified using MALDI-TOF-MS as being the same Mycobacterium species as that used for the inoculation (El Khéchine et al., 2011). In particular, non-tuberculosis mycobacteria that are known as common soil inhabitants (Salah et al., 2009) were not identified in either control or inoculated plates.

These observations are entirely novel for M. canettii. This particular species, the agent of human tuberculosis in the Horn of Africa, is thought to have an environmental, yet unknown, reservoir (Koeck et al., 2011). Data herein reported indicate that M. canettii can significantly achieve more sustained survival in soil than M. tuberculosis and M. bovis. These data suggest it would be interesting to investigate the presence of M. canettii in soil samples collected in M. canettii-endemic regions.

A unique Russian report indicated that three different strains of M. tuberculosis, including the H37Rv strain studied herein, could be cultured for no longer than 3 months after being seeded in natural turf–podzol sandy soil (Kozlov & Rotov, 1977). Several reports have indicated that M. bovis is able to survive in soil (Walter et al., 2012). One previous study, using PCR-based detection, found mpb64 and mpb70 MTC-specific sequences in soil sampled from an Irish farm that had a history of bovine tuberculosis, and no incoming infected bovines and badgers after culling, for as long as 15 months after possible contamination. The sequences exhibited >99 % identity to reference M. bovis sequences (Young et al., 2005). Nevertheless, experimental inoculation of other farm soil with the M. bovis BCG Pasteur strain revealed a rapid decrease in both living cells and DNA content, and the influence of both temperature and humidity in such decay processes (Young et al., 2005).

Likewise, PCR-based detection of the mpb70 gene was positive in 47 % of the soil samples collected in badger setts (tunnels) from 60 UK farms in six bovine tuberculosis-endemic regions; furthermore, 16S rRNA detection was indicative of viable organisms (Courtenay et al., 2006). Refined real-time PCR detecting the DR4 region confirmed that all badger setts tested on a UK farm in 2006 were positive for M. bovis (Sweeney et al., 2007).

More convincing evidence was provided by culture-based observations. M. bovis organisms were previously isolated from a water sample, but not from soil samples, collected from a naturally infected badger yard (Little et al., 1982). Moreover, M. bovis organisms could be isolated 4 weeks after artificial contamination of the soil (Duffield & Young, 1985), for 6 weeks from exposed naturally infected buffalo tissues and for 4 weeks from spiked buffalo faeces; however, M. bovis could be isolated for only 5 days from buried tissues (Tanner & Michel, 1999).

In these previous studies, contamination by rapidly growing soil inhabitants may have hampered the further recovery of viable M. bovis cells from infected soil samples (Young et al., 2005). Refined immune-trapping of M. bovis was crucial to avoiding contamination and helped to grow M. bovis mycobacteria within 4 weeks from the soil of 7/7 badger setts (Sweeney et al., 2007). It was recently shown that M. bovis survived as long as 88 days in soil under natural weather conditions (Fine et al., 2011).

 

[matthew]

TB enters macrophages in the body to hide from the host.

It cannot survive in soil this way. But TB is though to be able to survive in soil in at least some circumstances and remain infectious after a prolonged period of time. 12 months in laboratory incubated conditions, other sources suggest 3 months in natural weather conditions. How likely infection via this medium is, however, something else entirely.

Long-term survival of tuberculosis complex mycobacteria in soil

While there is evidence for the persistence of Mycobacterium bovis in soil, there are no reports for the other Mycobacterium tuberculosis complex (MTC) mycobacteria. Here, soil was inoculated with 108 c.f.u. g−1 M. tuberculosis, M. bovis and M. canettii and subcultured monthly for 12 months. The...

www.microbiologyresearch.org

Discussion

Here, we observed that three MTC species can survive in soil for 12 months. This observation was verified by the fact that the negative control plates, which were incubated in parallel with inoculated plates, remained sterile throughout the 12-month duration of the experiment, indicating that the growth of MTC mycobacteria reported herein did not merely result from contamination of the soil prior to or after experimental inoculation. Moreover, all of the colonies were conclusively identified using MALDI-TOF-MS as being the same Mycobacterium species as that used for the inoculation (El Khéchine et al., 2011). In particular, non-tuberculosis mycobacteria that are known as common soil inhabitants (Salah et al., 2009) were not identified in either control or inoculated plates.

These observations are entirely novel for M. canettii. This particular species, the agent of human tuberculosis in the Horn of Africa, is thought to have an environmental, yet unknown, reservoir (Koeck et al., 2011). Data herein reported indicate that M. canettii can significantly achieve more sustained survival in soil than M. tuberculosis and M. bovis. These data suggest it would be interesting to investigate the presence of M. canettii in soil samples collected in M. canettii-endemic regions.

A unique Russian report indicated that three different strains of M. tuberculosis, including the H37Rv strain studied herein, could be cultured for no longer than 3 months after being seeded in natural turf–podzol sandy soil (Kozlov & Rotov, 1977). Several reports have indicated that M. bovis is able to survive in soil (Walter et al., 2012). One previous study, using PCR-based detection, found mpb64 and mpb70 MTC-specific sequences in soil sampled from an Irish farm that had a history of bovine tuberculosis, and no incoming infected bovines and badgers after culling, for as long as 15 months after possible contamination. The sequences exhibited >99 % identity to reference M. bovis sequences (Young et al., 2005). Nevertheless, experimental inoculation of other farm soil with the M. bovis BCG Pasteur strain revealed a rapid decrease in both living cells and DNA content, and the influence of both temperature and humidity in such decay processes (Young et al., 2005).

Likewise, PCR-based detection of the mpb70 gene was positive in 47 % of the soil samples collected in badger setts (tunnels) from 60 UK farms in six bovine tuberculosis-endemic regions; furthermore, 16S rRNA detection was indicative of viable organisms (Courtenay et al., 2006). Refined real-time PCR detecting the DR4 region confirmed that all badger setts tested on a UK farm in 2006 were positive for M. bovis (Sweeney et al., 2007).

More convincing evidence was provided by culture-based observations. M. bovis organisms were previously isolated from a water sample, but not from soil samples, collected from a naturally infected badger yard (Little et al., 1982). Moreover, M. bovis organisms could be isolated 4 weeks after artificial contamination of the soil (Duffield & Young, 1985), for 6 weeks from exposed naturally infected buffalo tissues and for 4 weeks from spiked buffalo faeces; however, M. bovis could be isolated for only 5 days from buried tissues (Tanner & Michel, 1999).

In these previous studies, contamination by rapidly growing soil inhabitants may have hampered the further recovery of viable M. bovis cells from infected soil samples (Young et al., 2005). Refined immune-trapping of M. bovis was crucial to avoiding contamination and helped to grow M. bovis mycobacteria within 4 weeks from the soil of 7/7 badger setts (Sweeney et al., 2007). It was recently shown that M. bovis survived as long as 88 days in soil under natural weather conditions (Fine et al., 2011).

There was thought a few years ago, that because of the possibility of soil contamination by earthworms, control of Lumbricus terrestris would suffice. So the solution? Wipe out earthworms. Nature's min till soil excavators. Wonderful. You really couldn't make it up.

Link to that little gem at the end of this 2016 posting:

End of the Summer term.

It seems that around July and August every year, a raft of papers are produced, their authors gad off with buckets and spades, the BBC medi...

bovinetb.blogspot.com

The best disinfectant is a bullet of course, but while m.bovis is a wax jacketed survivor, UV light (sunshine) does the job very well in a few hours. But half cooked bacteria, are more lethal than fresh.