The Two Simon's Theory

[BSH]

Or glyphosate. I know no one agrees with me on this (ecxept Jill Clapperton of course, but what does she know), but I still think that when it is sprayed onto living plants in warm growing conditions, the chemical goes straight out through the roots and is taken up by the emerging seedlings. Doesn't happen when you spray it onto bare soil.

Have wondered about this but not sure I have seen it yet. Understand the theory but never seen the effect. I only spray after drilling though so maybe an aspect of spraying first then drilling later for those that have seen it?

 

[Louis Mc]

If you have a broadleaf dominated cover crop we never get any trouble drilling cereals on the green, in fact they often Come quicker that where stubble is bare,

Also we drill beans into green oats with no trouble at all.

Drilling cereals into a cereal cover crop is where the issue occurs so for us that's something we avoid

 

[Simon Chiles]

Or glyphosate. I know no one agrees with me on this (ecxept Jill Clapperton of course, but what does she know), but I still think that when it is sprayed onto living plants in warm growing conditions, the chemical goes straight out through the roots and is taken up by the emerging seedlings. Doesn't happen when you spray it onto bare soil.

I seriously doubt it's being exuded out of the roots. My old ( he's been retired for 15 years ) agronomist used to insist that after spraying roundup onto a cover/lots of trash we waited until we'd had a decent amount of rain before we drilled hence the move to spraying after drilling. His theory was that until the roundup had been washed off the cover or straw you ran the risk of planting material that had dropped into the slot that was covered in roundup next to your seed and could then be taken up by the seed.

 

[York]

Or glyphosate. I know no one agrees with me on this (ecxept Jill Clapperton of course, but what does she know), but I still think that when it is sprayed onto living plants in warm growing conditions, the chemical goes straight out through the roots and is taken up by the emerging seedlings. Doesn't happen when you spray it onto bare soil.

Simon C,
you can be right in this. Look glyphosate was 1st registered as a powerfull chelator & to my understanding that's the majority of mode of action.
Why I'm pretty sure about this? client wanted to save money so he put into the Glyphosate mix, to burn down before maise, a trace element as sulfate. Outcome: no burn down at all. where he didn't use this mix it burned down like you would expect.
There is enough evidence out there to back even the root exudate point.
everyone is free to draw his own conclusions.
York-Th.

 

[Breakthru]

I seriously doubt it's being exuded out of the roots. My old ( he's been retired for 15 years ) agronomist used to insist that after spraying roundup onto a cover/lots of trash we waited until we'd had a decent amount of rain before we drilled hence the move to spraying after drilling. His theory was that until the roundup had been washed off the cover or straw you ran the risk of planting material that had dropped into the slot that was covered in roundup next to your seed and could then be taken up by the seed.

I would go with that theory as more likely and use Anchor or a n other sticker to avoid that run off effect. May even stop the effect of transfer in the slot from the CC.

 

[SilliamWhale]

I seriously doubt it's being exuded out of the roots. My old ( he's been retired for 15 years ) agronomist used to insist that after spraying roundup onto a cover/lots of trash we waited until we'd had a decent amount of rain before we drilled hence the move to spraying after drilling. His theory was that until the roundup had been washed off the cover or straw you ran the risk of planting material that had dropped into the slot that was covered in roundup next to your seed and could then be taken up by the seed.

But I had an issue this year with barley getting mullered by two simons 2 weeks after spraying - but admittedly a hugh amount of rain. I swear heat plays a part in it all

 

[SilliamWhale]

If you have a broadleaf dominated cover crop we never get any trouble drilling cereals on the green, in fact they often Come quicker that where stubble is bare,

Also we drill beans into green oats with no trouble at all.

Drilling cereals into a cereal cover crop is where the issue occurs so for us that's something we avoid

I've never seen it in the autumn only in the spring. And I've drilled wheat into grass a few times in October.

 

[Simon C]

I seriously doubt it's being exuded out of the roots. My old ( he's been retired for 15 years ) agronomist used to insist that after spraying roundup onto a cover/lots of trash we waited until we'd had a decent amount of rain before we drilled hence the move to spraying after drilling. His theory was that until the roundup had been washed off the cover or straw you ran the risk of planting material that had dropped into the slot that was covered in roundup next to your seed and could then be taken up by the seed.

I dare say the old boy is right about seedlings picking up glyphosate by coming into direct contact with dying vegetation, even Monsanto admit to this and I think warn about it on the can.

As far as the stuff being exuded out of the roots, I don't see that there can be any mechanism to prevent this. Glyphosate is translocated throughout the plant, that is why it is so good at killing the whole thing, right down to the root tips. This means that while the plant is still living, it will continue to feed the mycorrhizal fungi and soil bacteria with liquid sugar compounds which are lased with glyphosate. By the way, glyphosate is a powerful fungicide itself, so all the mycorrhizae attached to a sprayed off plant will also be killed, in fact having a decent fungal network in the soil which is all connected together means the whole lot will be killed. We are then relying on the fungi having deposited enough spores to colonise the next crop. In a perennial system the fungal network goes on growing year after year, but surprisingly, even after an annual plant like wheat has died naturally and been harvested, the hyphae will carry on living on the decaying roots until they can attach to new roots of the next crop.

I digress, obviously if it is cold and the plants are hardly growing, and therefor not translocating, glyphosate may never get down to the roots or into the soil, but when it is warm, it can happen within a day. @Andy Howard is not inclined to believe my crack pot theory, he thinks it has more to do with glyphosate temporarily locking up nutrients, especially Manganese, in the soil. If that is the case, and I am not saying it isn't be a contributing factor, the chemical has to be in the soil in quite high quantities. It could be washed down by heavy rain from the surface, but I have seen problems in the absence of rain, like @martian's photo above.

 

[mikep]

Simon C,
you can be right in this. Look glyphosate was 1st registered as a powerfull chelator & to my understanding that's the majority of mode of action.
Why I'm pretty sure about this? client wanted to save money so he put into the Glyphosate mix, to burn down before maise, a trace element as sulfate. Outcome: no burn down at all. where he didn't use this mix it burned down like you would expect.
There is enough evidence out there to back even the root exudate point.
everyone is free to draw his own conclusions.
York-Th.

Before time began when roundup was expensive the first trick was to add ammonium sulphate to the tank with half rate roundup, worked very well.

 

[Louis Mc]

I've never seen it in the autumn only in the spring. And I've drilled wheat into grass a few times in October.

I was talking about spring cereals, agree autumn is not an issue

 

[bactosoil]

Plants themselves will try and stave off the effects of Glyphosate with a SAR response and where possible try and lock up Glyphosate as best they can , bacteria and fungi can respond to the plants situation by shutting down and going to a preservation mode , quorum sensing at the heart of this .
given a helping hand grass can over come strong doses of Glyphosate might not be useful / practical but interesting none the less

 

[Andy Howard]

I dare say the old boy is right about seedlings picking up glyphosate by coming into direct contact with dying vegetation, even Monsanto admit to this and I think warn about it on the can.
I think crackpot is a bit harsh I would only ever drill on the green in the spring if a legume cash crop or a legume cover crop before cereal. Cereal on cereal is asking for trouble. My rule of thumb is 3 weeks from spray off to drill. I also prefer my covers grazed. Interestingly in our spring barley I noticed today a yellow patch, from a distance looks like Mn deficiency. It corresponds exactly to where I sprayed off wheat last summer. Showing up a year later. Also had a winter cover on it.

As far as the stuff being exuded out of the roots, I don't see that there can be any mechanism to prevent this. Glyphosate is translocated throughout the plant, that is why it is so good at killing the whole thing, right down to the root tips. This means that while the plant is still living, it will continue to feed the mycorrhizal fungi and soil bacteria with liquid sugar compounds which are lased with glyphosate. By the way, glyphosate is a powerful fungicide itself, so all the mycorrhizae attached to a sprayed off plant will also be killed, in fact having a decent fungal network in the soil which is all connected together means the whole lot will be killed. We are then relying on the fungi having deposited enough spores to colonise the next crop. In a perennial system the fungal network goes on growing year after year, but surprisingly, even after an annual plant like wheat has died naturally and been harvested, the hyphae will carry on living on the decaying roots until they can attach to new roots of the next crop.

I digress, obviously if it is cold and the plants are hardly growing, and therefor not translocating, glyphosate may never get down to the roots or into the soil, but when it is warm, it can happen within a day. @Andy Howard is not inclined to believe my crack pot theory, he thinks it has more to do with glyphosate temporarily locking up nutrients, especially Manganese, in the soil. If that is the case, and I am not saying it isn't be a contributing factor, the chemical has to be in the soil in quite high quantities. It could be washed down by heavy rain from the surface, but I have seen problems in the absence of rain, like @martian's photo above.

 

[Simon Chiles]

I dare say the old boy is right about seedlings picking up glyphosate by coming into direct contact with dying vegetation, even Monsanto admit to this and I think warn about it on the can.

As far as the stuff being exuded out of the roots, I don't see that there can be any mechanism to prevent this. Glyphosate is translocated throughout the plant, that is why it is so good at killing the whole thing, right down to the root tips. This means that while the plant is still living, it will continue to feed the mycorrhizal fungi and soil bacteria with liquid sugar compounds which are lased with glyphosate. By the way, glyphosate is a powerful fungicide itself, so all the mycorrhizae attached to a sprayed off plant will also be killed, in fact having a decent fungal network in the soil which is all connected together means the whole lot will be killed. We are then relying on the fungi having deposited enough spores to colonise the next crop. In a perennial system the fungal network goes on growing year after year, but surprisingly, even after an annual plant like wheat has died naturally and been harvested, the hyphae will carry on living on the decaying roots until they can attach to new roots of the next crop.

I digress, obviously if it is cold and the plants are hardly growing, and therefor not translocating, glyphosate may never get down to the roots or into the soil, but when it is warm, it can happen within a day. @Andy Howard is not inclined to believe my crack pot theory, he thinks it has more to do with glyphosate temporarily locking up nutrients, especially Manganese, in the soil. If that is the case, and I am not saying it isn't be a contributing factor, the chemical has to be in the soil in quite high quantities. It could be washed down by heavy rain from the surface, but I have seen problems in the absence of rain, like @martian's photo above.

I've just thought of something else the old boy used to bang on about and that was that roundup was mainly translocated to the part of the plant that was actively growing and that using roundup in the spring was nowhere near as effective as the autumn because it didn't get down to the roots much. Using it in the spring he described it as a super gramoxone job and maintained that it did little better than knocking growth rather than actually killing.

 

[H.Jackson]

My observations have seen much better couch control in the Autumn than spring with glyphosate, remember when studying for basis thistles and docks best sprayed then as plant shutting down for winter drew chem down into roots.

 

[Wigeon]

Just come across this thread.

We have had problems over the last couple of years with rape failing to establish behind the combine wheelings, or , if establishing , being very behind for the rest of the year. All straw is chopped, but there remains a 3m wide strip every 12m.

If the combine operator (contractor) is assumed to have his settings right and his chopper blades sharp etc, what other practical measures can be taken to minimise the effect?

The effect has been seen in rape drilled with both a Mzuri and direct with a horsch sprinter with narrow points, and following both wheat and barley.

I don't really want to explore cultivation options if at all possible. There is a rake nearby which we can use, though we did try it this year and it did not solve the problem, though it possibly helped a little.

I now have the ability to put a second product down the spout with the horsch, so would a prilled lime and dap mix be worth exploring, and if so at what rate? We have historically used dap at 100kgs with the Mzuri.

All other ideas gratefully received. Cleavers are apparently a little less fussy than the rape and had a high old time of it last year in the gaps, with the consequent cleaning nightmares.

 

[Shutesy]

Just come across this thread.

We have had problems over the last couple of years with rape failing to establish behind the combine wheelings, or , if establishing , being very behind for the rest of the year. All straw is chopped, but there remains a 3m wide strip every 12m.

If the combine operator (contractor) is assumed to have his settings right and his chopper blades sharp etc, what other practical measures can be taken to minimise the effect?

The effect has been seen in rape drilled with both a Mzuri and direct with a horsch sprinter with narrow points, and following both wheat and barley.

I don't really want to explore cultivation options if at all possible. There is a rake nearby which we can use, though we did try it this year and it did not solve the problem, though it possibly helped a little.

I now have the ability to put a second product down the spout with the horsch, so would a prilled lime and dap mix be worth exploring, and if so at what rate? We have historically used dap at 100kgs with the Mzuri.

All other ideas gratefully received. Cleavers are apparently a little less fussy than the rape and had a high old time of it last year in the gaps, with the consequent cleaning nightmares.

Does your combine spread the chaff as well as the straw? Or do what ours does and spread the straw and leave the chaff in a 1m wide row about 5cm thick between the combine wheels. Are you sure its poor establishment as opposed to slug damage?

 

[Wigeon]

Does your combine spread the chaff as well as the straw? Or do what ours does and spread the straw and leave the chaff in a 1m wide row about 5cm thick between the combine wheels. Are you sure its poor establishment as opposed to slug damage?

Yes, there is certainly something in that re the chaff not spreading well - following harvest 2015 there was such a thick mat of volunteers between the wheels in places that the falcon only took one flush and it needed the astrokerb to finish it off. Fairly sure it's not solely slug damage in isolation, though of course this may be a factor.

 

[rob1]

Does your combine spread the chaff as well as the straw? Or do what ours does and spread the straw and leave the chaff in a 1m wide row about 5cm thick between the combine wheels. Are you sure its poor establishment as opposed to slug damage?

Def think its the chaff as we see it here behind one combine that doesnt spread it and one that does it isnt a problem ,luckily this year my friends who do my combining have changed the one that doesnt spread.

 

[Breakthru]

Def think its the chaff as we see it here behind one combine that doesnt spread it and one that does it isnt a problem ,luckily this year my friends who do my combining have changed the one that doesnt spread.

i would definitely look at the chaff spreading, locks up N and that is where your stripes are coming from. First saw it in the 80's before chaff spreaders came in.

 

[SimonD]

Change in plans. Going to put WW into a temp grass lay rather than the intended winter barley as the volunteers are going to swamp it.
Local agri merchant has some Calcifert so was planning on 100kg/ha to reduce the "2 Simon's " risk. Ph is probably on the lower side of alright as next year is the normal lime application. Is this enough?