The Two Simon's Theory

[TelesnaAg]

Just come across this thread.

We have had problems over the last couple of years with rape failing to establish behind the combine wheelings, or , if establishing , being very behind for the rest of the year. All straw is chopped, but there remains a 3m wide strip every 12m.

If the combine operator (contractor) is assumed to have his settings right and his chopper blades sharp etc, what other practical measures can be taken to minimise the effect?

The effect has been seen in rape drilled with both a Mzuri and direct with a horsch sprinter with narrow points, and following both wheat and barley.

I don't really want to explore cultivation options if at all possible. There is a rake nearby which we can use, though we did try it this year and it did not solve the problem, though it possibly helped a little.

I now have the ability to put a second product down the spout with the horsch, so would a prilled lime and dap mix be worth exploring, and if so at what rate? We have historically used dap at 100kgs with the Mzuri.

All other ideas gratefully received. Cleavers are apparently a little less fussy than the rape and had a high old time of it last year in the gaps, with the consequent cleaning nightmares.

Do the plants germinate? and if they do are the ones dying got any straw touching them?

Ant...

 

[jonnyjon]

This year I broadcast oats after combined w barley, straw baled, headlands had w wheat which was wholecropped, spread compost and scratch disced. I notice that the oats are stronger and thicker in the wheat stubble, possible 2 Simon's?? Plan is to dd w barley end of sept with disc drill about 2 week's after spraying off the oats, concerned about alliopath of the oats and possible 2 Simon's ? Any words of wisdom??

 

[SilliamWhale]

This year I broadcast oats after combined w barley, straw baled, headlands had w wheat which was wholecropped, spread compost and scratch disced. I notice that the oats are stronger and thicker in the wheat stubble, possible 2 Simon's?? Plan is to dd w barley end of sept with disc drill about 2 week's after spraying off the oats, concerned about alliopath of the oats and possible 2 Simon's ? Any words of wisdom??

In my experience you should be ok with cereals this time of year with warmth

 

[Simon Chiles]

This year I broadcast oats after combined w barley, straw baled, headlands had w wheat which was wholecropped, spread compost and scratch disced. I notice that the oats are stronger and thicker in the wheat stubble, possible 2 Simon's?? Plan is to dd w barley end of sept with disc drill about 2 week's after spraying off the oats, concerned about alliopath of the oats and possible 2 Simon's ? Any words of wisdom??

Have you baled the oat straw?

 

[Simon Chiles]

In my experience you should be ok with cereals this time of year with warmth

It’s always very difficult to predict what exactly is going to happen, it’s not the weather and soil temperature at the time of planting that’s important, what occurs in the following months has the greatest effect on outcome. Soil type also plays a major part.

 

[jonnyjon]

Have you baled the oat straw?

Oats were only sown a month ago as a cover crop

 

[Hartwig]

I`ve a related issue to worry about.....
Oats combined early august, straw baled and now a mat of volunteers in the swath. My plan is to DD winter barley with the Moore and save the pre-em as there should be very low weed pressure after oats with no soil disturbance.

But: what about allelopathy or two simons in this mat of volunteers ??

And when to spray glypho at which rate ?? I know that oats take a decent rate to get killed, but will I kill this swath at all ??

One idea is to take the rotovator now and only work the swath-lines really shallow just to kill the volunteers and move nearly no soil (in theory...). Would that help and work ?

 

[Louis Mc]

I have used a graminicide to take out barley volunteers where they are bad in some of our cover crops. Will glyph And drill winter cereal at end of September

 

[Simon Chiles]

Oats were only sown a month ago as a cover crop

I`ve a related issue to worry about.....
Oats combined early august, straw baled and now a mat of volunteers in the swath. My plan is to DD winter barley with the Moore and save the pre-em as there should be very low weed pressure after oats with no soil disturbance.

But: what about allelopathy or two simons in this mat of volunteers ??

And when to spray glypho at which rate ?? I know that oats take a decent rate to get killed, but will I kill this swath at all ??

One idea is to take the rotovator now and only work the swath-lines really shallow just to kill the volunteers and move nearly no soil (in theory...). Would that help and work ?

View attachment 709988

One of the scenarios that made
us think about this was as follows:-

I had several fields of spring barley in a block, we had lots of secondary tillers in the crop so selecting the appropriate harvest date proved tricky, to the point that we had quite a few whole barley heads on the ground before we combined it. Worried about the amount of barley I was going to have in the following crop of wheat I lightly disced it to encourage volunteers. When we had a decent flush of barley I sprayed them off and drilled the wheat. Five of the fields had no wheat grow at all. Typically these were the ones by the road but fortunately for me none of my neighbours realised I’d planted anything because the crop failure was complete. The other two fields grew normally. When I questioned my agronomist at the time he told me it was because the drill was too heavy. I pointed out that it was all drilled with the same drill on the same day so he then suggested that maybe the two fields had less rain, as they were only the thickness of the hedge away from the other fields I decided that that was unlikely. The penny dropped when I realised that the two fields that the wheat grew in had been heavily grazed by deer earlier. This meant that the crop was much more uniform than the rest and hadn’t had some of the barley ears drop off and consequently hadn’t had anywhere near as many barley volunteers when it was disced. The decaying barley volunteers were enough to completely wipe out the following crop of wheat in those conditions. Unfortunately one of the problems with this theory is that it’s a combination of multiple factors that need to come together to produce crop failures as spectacular as the above example, if they don’t you can often get away with it or lead you into possibly even thinking it doesn’t pose a problem.

 

[Simon Chiles]

I have used a graminicide to take out barley volunteers where they are bad in some of our cover crops. Will glyph And drill winter cereal at end of September

Probably a smart move, especially if you sprayed them out some time ago.

 

[kiwi]

Or glyphosate. I know no one agrees with me on this (ecxept Jill Clapperton of course, but what does she know), but I still think that when it is sprayed onto living plants in warm growing conditions, the chemical goes straight out through the roots and is taken up by the emerging seedlings. Doesn't happen when you spray it onto bare soil.

Have you changed your mind about this at all Simon? I have an issue with Spring down barley after a Crimson clover,vetch,buckwheat cover crop that was grazed by lambs at end of winter, sprayed about 3 days before drilling. A bare patch of soil at corner of paddock is so much better than rest. Difficult to say if it's roundup or allopathic effect. How do we get around this issue when growing covers?
I had the same issue a few years ago after a grass cover crop and the barley was worse where the lambs hadn't grazed and made me think it was the fact the bigger leaf area had sucked more glyphosate into the roots of the growing barley. But I have no proof.

 

[Simon C]

Still no proof I am afraid but I do still think this is at least part of the reason my crops were so poor after over winter cover. It is one of the reasons that I don't grow cover crops any more, spring crops are so much better now without.

 

[kiwi]

Thanks Simon. Given all the media on covercrops , this issue seems to be over looked and having had issues myself I find it hard to believe that some of the expert growers most knowledgeable on cover crops don't mention the issue.

 

[SilliamWhale]

I don't think its glyphosate per se - if it was then why is not a problem when I pre-em spray roundup when drilling in the autumn?

I think its cold weather and dying roots combining to affect germination of seedlings in the spring

 

[Simon C]

I don't think its glyphosate per se - if it was then why is not a problem when I pre-em spray roundup when drilling in the autumn?

I think its cold weather and dying roots combining to affect germination of seedlings in the spring

I don't know but could there be a difference between how plants pass glyphosate mixed with exudates in the autumn compared to the spring. Could also be that a 18 inch high covercrop in the spring will take up a lot more chemical than small weeds in the autumn.

The other thing of course is that heavy clay soils seem to suffer from these sort of problems far more than light soils. It is the same with acids from rotting straw which make it impossible for me to grow anything except beans in chopped straw. These chemicals seem to be held by the clay and do not wash through of get diluted by rain.

As I said earlier in this thread, I had a long chat with Jill Clapperton about this at Groundswell a couple of years ago, She said that glyphosate would definitely be released into the soil with exudates, and that under certain circumstances would effect the following emerging crop. She also said that it would be very temperature dependent, in warm growing weather, the glyphosate would be out into the soil within a day or two, whereas when cold, it would remain in the roots and gradually degrade there.

By the way Will, when thinking about Jill, I am always reminded of our mutual friend from Finland who, while having a good grasp of English, often doesn't use quite the right translation, he described her as a "crisp superlady", which I found quite amusing.

 

[SilliamWhale]

I don't know but could there be a difference between how plants pass glyphosate mixed with exudates in the autumn compared to the spring. Could also be that a 18 inch high covercrop in the spring will take up a lot more chemical than small weeds in the autumn.

The other thing of course is that heavy clay soils seem to suffer from these sort of problems far more than light soils. It is the same with acids from rotting straw which make it impossible for me to grow anything except beans in chopped straw. These chemicals seem to be held by the clay and do not wash through of get diluted by rain.

As I said earlier in this thread, I had a long chat with Jill Clapperton about this at Groundswell a couple of years ago, She said that glyphosate would definitely be released into the soil with exudates, and that under certain circumstances would effect the following emerging crop. She also said that it would be very temperature dependent, in warm growing weather, the glyphosate would be out into the soil within a day or two, whereas when cold, it would remain in the roots and gradually degrade there.

By the way Will, when thinking about Jill, I am always reminded of our mutual friend from Finland who, while having a good grasp of English, often doesn't use quite the right translation, he described her as a "crisp superlady", which I found quite amusing.

I spent a week with him in Finland this year! Super chap - visited loads of no till farms and research places with him. Theyve got some good things going on there - here he is, me and one of the early no till adopters in Finland (in a stylish tracksuit!)

Incidentally I heard nothing off the effects of glyphosate affecting germination in Finland in what is a country with theoretically a colder spring and mainly spring cropping

 

[SilliamWhale]

I spent a week with him in Finland this year! Super chap - visited loads of no till farms and research places with him. Theyve got some good things going on there - here he is, me and one of the early no till adopters in Finland (in a stylish tracksuit!)

Incidentally I heard nothing off the effects of glyphosate affecting germination in Finland in what is a country with theoretically a colder spring and mainly spring cropping

Pic wont load. Will do tomorrow and maybee should do a thread of no till in Finland

 

[kiwi]

Have you noticed difference between hoe coulter and Disc. I haven't but only thing I haven't tried is placement of fertiliser or some brew in the slot. Surely their is a way to mitigate this issue successfully . I may get our arable research organisation to look into it given the amount of interest in covers.

 

[kiwi]

Have any of you seen this thesis done in Germany on the effects of glyphosate and AMPA especially in the early spring period. It may explain a lot of the symptoms we are seeing but I am no expert so would like comment by someone more qualified. https://d-nb.info/1142977625/34
I hope this link works if it doesn't I will try to get the pdf

 

[Simon C]

Have any of you seen this thesis done in Germany on the effects of glyphosate and AMPA especially in the early spring period. It may explain a lot of the symptoms we are seeing but I am no expert so would like comment by someone more qualified. https://d-nb.info/1142977625/34
I hope this link works if it doesn't I will try to get the pdf

Thank for that kiwi, I will have a look later, all 195 pages of it!