Twice a boy ..Once a man .What happens when this doesnt happen

[eternal peter pan]

This saying has come up a few times lately and it refers to the succession / letting go / transfer of knowledge from one generation too the next . When succession is planned /accepted ,even looked forward too then the family farm has a must greater likelyhood of success in the future .. What happens when a Bidenesk situation happens (President Biden)( holds on too long and everyone suffers due to their own personal narcassistic beleifs and validation)There is no disscusion / Involvement /reward/ satisfaction for any of the following generations. I read several instances of this but that may be because i have been affected by it....Lots of replys ,o lack of succession or the difficulties of getting someone to let go because its beyond their time come back as (IF YOU DONT LIKE IT THEN MOVE ON) This is all well and good if you havent devoted your life to the family buisiness and dont have anything else . in this day and age there must be processes similar to propritry estopple ,that dont involve the complete destruction of family buisnesses by the lawyers / solicitors,that are the only ones that benifit from these proceedings... There must be some of you out there that have navigated this path that could share some of you experiences with us as nearly everything i read comes from the perspective of the controlling entity .. How many farms end up in non farming siblings hands or sold up because the following generation has not been allowed to be part of the buisiness and all the problems that arise due to this

 

[Nearly]

As things stand I've only just (in my mind) got a grip on the reins, mini-N is working for a merry-go-round farm up the road and his stoppages are more than I draw.
He hasn't TIME to farm our patch and I still enjoy it if I ignore the actual returns.
Decisions are taken between us and he's aware that if we were paying contractors' (his boss) rates then we'd lose money.
When he's had enough of 18 hour days he'll tell his boss to do one and I'll step back a bit.

 

[eternal peter pan]

Just to clarify that mini -m isn't working at home on the farm .. im trying to reach the ones that have put their lifetime into the family buisness but have never been allowed to be part of it ,due to people with control issues

 

[Spud]

Just to clarify that mini -m isn't working at home on the farm .. im trying to reach the ones that have put their lifetime into the family buisness but have never been allowed to be part of it ,due to people with control issues

We are all in control of our own destiny, it's no good moaning down the line.

In many ways I've been very lucky, but things are as they are because of hard work, solid principles and a bit of foresight.

Up to leaving school I was paid a few buttons a year. It didn't matter, in those years I didn't need much and loved working - I'd do c40hrs a week in term time!
At 16 I was paid £70/week and a bit of overtime.
Through college parents paid my board, I paid beer etc via working weekends etc.
When I came home I earned a wage like anyone else, bought a house at 23, ran a half decent motor, had a social life etc.
I became a partner in the business at 27. I put my car in as collateral. It was important to me that my efforts be for my children rather than my siblings and mum & dad understood that. So drawings were relatively meagre and my profit share was listed on my capital account (% dictated by responsibility taken)
Initially I was a tractor driver so responsibility stopped at 'is it took wet for this job'
Over the years we divided responsibilities - I ran the spuds, dad the haulage. The rest didn't take much running and in practice I did the on the ground stuff & dad most of the office stuff.
We were responsible and accountable for our decisions. We discussed bigger investments but smaller stuff and everyday running we just got on with it. You discussed the other party, listen to their thoughts and make your decision. Sometimes that conversation changed your perspective, sometimes you ignored it. Regardless, the decision was yours, as were the consequences. You never said I told you so, even if you thought it occasionally!
Fundamentally dad and I were very similar people and could clash at times. Fortunately we were able to get it said and let it go - grudges achieve nowt.

Dad died in March 2018. I miss the old bugger, but take some solace in the years we had together - it was no walk in the park, but I'd do it all again on a heartbeat.

Too many people except to be given the reins without personal risk, responsibility or skin in the game. It's not going to happen. Credibility and reward needs to be earned, and any succession arrangements need to work for both generations.

 

[Chae1]

I think there grip tightens as they get older. Not less as I'd hoped/expected

 

[eternal peter pan]

We are all in control of our own destiny, it's no good moaning down the line.

In many ways I've been very lucky, but things are as they are because of hard work, solid principles and a bit of foresight.

Up to leaving school I was paid a few buttons a year. It didn't matter, in those years I didn't need much and loved working - I'd do c40hrs a week in term time!
At 16 I was paid £70/week and a bit of overtime.
Through college parents paid my board, I paid beer etc via working weekends etc.
When I came home I earned a wage like anyone else, bought a house at 23, ran a half decent motor, had a social life etc.
I became a partner in the business at 27. I put my car in as collateral. It was important to me that my efforts be for my children rather than my siblings and mum & dad understood that. So drawings were relatively meagre and my profit share was listed on my capital account (% dictated by responsibility taken)
Initially I was a tractor driver so responsibility stopped at 'is it took wet for this job'
Over the years we divided responsibilities - I ran the spuds, dad the haulage. The rest didn't take much running and in practice I did the on the ground stuff & dad most of the office stuff.
We were responsible and accountable for our decisions. We discussed bigger investments but smaller stuff and everyday running we just got on with it. You discussed the other party, listen to their thoughts and make your decision. Sometimes that conversation changed your perspective, sometimes you ignored it. Regardless, the decision was yours, as were the consequences. You never said I told you so, even if you thought it occasionally!
Fundamentally dad and I were very similar people and could clash at times. Fortunately we were able to get it said and let it go - grudges achieve nowt.

Dad died in March 2018. I miss the old bugger, but take some solace in the years we had together - it was no walk in the park, but I'd do it all again on a heartbeat.

Too many people except to be given the reins without personal risk, responsibility or skin in the game. It's not going to happen. Credibility and reward needs to be earned, and any succession arrangements need to work for both generations.

Sounds like you had the opportunity to have say in the running of your situation ,even though it wasnt control outright ...you learnt on the job...My question was for those that do the graft but have no say or involvement within the enterprise .This inevitably raises the remarks that we shouldn't stay or shouldn't of stayed. This is very difficult when hope is there that one day something will change

 

[L P]

I've found it exceptionally hard at times in the past with working alongside the old man on the farm, had some excellent times too though.... quite honestly I miss the old boy most days. What is more horrifying is the behavior of non farming family in the aftermath wanting something they never lifted a finger for. Enjoy him while he is here, but for goodness sake make sure he gets his will watertight from prying eyes for the day he's gone. You most likely have totally honourable parents, do not count on it with your siblings to chance stabbing you in the back for a pound of flesh.

 

[Spud]

Sounds like you had the opportunity to have say in the running of your situation ,even though it wasnt control outright ...you learnt on the job...My question was for those that do the graft but have no say or involvement within the enterprise .This inevitably raises the remarks that we shouldn't stay or shouldn't of stayed. This is very difficult when hope is there that one day something will change

If I'd dug my toes in and demanded full control I'd of been told to bugger off. I was lucky that the two major enterprises both needed focus and time committing two them. I was able to build the potato enterprise because dad was busy with the haulage - but equally he was able to run the transport because i was looking after the farming. In the earlier days I was essentially a foreman - I was deciding how we were fettling seedbeds, how jobs were allocated etc. Every so often I'd ask dad to come and look at something and give me his opinion - I knew pretty much what he'd say, but always good to discuss things and nurture the relationship. The whole thing evolved over time because of how we both naturally did specefic things on the ground - the fact that I put some collateral in the business over the years helped too.

What I'd suggest to anyone battling succession is sit down and have a think - what do you ultimately want? Is it actually possible? When I was 25 dad was 50. He asked our landlord if he'd consider making me joint tenant so that he could justify laying some concrete. Their response was mostly positive but considered me too young at that time. Had dad being met with a flat no, its fair to say I'd have considered my options and sailed a different sea - mostly because options and energy are far greater in your twenties than forties. Ask the senior generation how they see the next so many years - consider also their experience of succession - that makes a difference. Ask them how they want to see the farm in say twenty years time - you might need to give them time to mull that one over!

If someone has a passion for a particular enterprise, give it some focus. Listen to the senior generation. I was lucky that dad let me make a few mistakes (still making them!) Put some savings/assets into the business, demonstrate a bit of commitment. Have a proper partnership agreement. Have a capital account, and as far as you possibly can, leave your profit share in the business (assuming there is one) as much as anything, it helps the business to grow and lessens the pain of the years that don't leave a surplus.

 

[Spud]

I've found it exceptionally hard at times in the past with working alongside the old man on the farm, had some excellent times too though.... quite honestly I miss the old boy most days. What is more horrifying is the behavior of non farming family in the aftermath wanting something they never lifted a finger for. Enjoy him while he is here, but for goodness sake make sure he gets his will watertight from prying eyes for the day he's gone. You most likely have totally honourable parents, do not count on it with your siblings to chance stabbing you in the back for a pound of flesh.

Thats exactly why its important to have your own capital account in the farm accounts - it protects your legitimate earnings from siblings.

 

[eternal peter pan]

If I'd dug my toes in and demanded full control I'd of been told to bugger off. I was lucky that the two major enterprises both needed focus and time committing two them. I was able to build the potato enterprise because dad was busy with the haulage - but equally he was able to run the transport because i was looking after the farming. In the earlier days I was essentially a foreman - I was deciding how we were fettling seedbeds, how jobs were allocated etc. Every so often I'd ask dad to come and look at something and give me his opinion - I knew pretty much what he'd say, but always good to discuss things and nurture the relationship. The whole thing evolved over time because of how we both naturally did specefic things on the ground - the fact that I put some collateral in the business over the years helped too.

What I'd suggest to anyone battling succession is sit down and have a think - what do you ultimately want? Is it actually possible? When I was 25 dad was 50. He asked our landlord if he'd consider making me joint tenant so that he could justify laying some concrete. Their response was mostly positive but considered me too young at that time. Had dad being met with a flat no, its fair to say I'd have considered my options and sailed a different sea - mostly because options and energy are far greater in your twenties than forties. Ask the senior generation how they see the next so many years - consider also their experience of succession - that makes a difference. Ask them how they want to see the farm in say twenty years time - you might need to give them time to mull that one over!

If someone has a passion for a particular enterprise, give it some focus. Listen to the senior generation. I was lucky that dad let me make a few mistakes (still making them!) Put some savings/assets into the business, demonstrate a bit of commitment. Have a proper partnership agreement. Have a capital account, and as far as you possibly can, leave your profit share in the business (assuming there is one) as much as anything, it helps the business to grow and lessens the pain of the years that don't leave a surplus.

once again this is what should happen (when the boss helps and guides us through the journey ) Im on about the dictatorial ones who litteraly make it their way or the highway . this is ok when they are all fit and well but when age and illness kick in and they still need to be dictatorial , the damage realy begins to kick in

 

[eternal peter pan]

Thats exactly why its important to have your own capital account in the farm accounts - it protects your legitimate earnings from siblings.

but when after a lifetime of working for the generation above ,sometimes thing go wrong and anger /resentment /retribution leads to the punishment of the next generation by maybe giveing it to the siblings or selling up out of spite and this is driven by personality , not one based on honour / fairness whatever you call it

 

[Spud]

but when after a lifetime of working for the generation above ,sometimes thing go wrong and anger /resentment /retribution leads to the punishment of the next generation by maybe giveing it to the siblings or selling up out of spite and this is driven by personality , not one based on honour / fairness whatever you call it

If your profit share / equity is listed in the accounts under your name it's safe from siblings and parents alike. Honour & fairness doesn't come into it. Paperwork is important!

 

[Spud]

once again this is what should happen (when the boss helps and guides us through the journey ) Im on about the dictatorial ones who litteraly make it their way or the highway . this is ok when they are all fit and well but when age and illness kick in and they still need to be dictatorial , the damage realy begins to kick in

Sometimes, professionals need to be involved (from the start)
And sometimes you need to paddle your own canoe.
Working for a promise or a hope is absolutely stark raving bonkers.
Get it written down, get it signed, and crack on - or walk away.