Welger Baler Knotter

[Greenmachine2]

Hi all, wonder if you could enlighten me with your vast knowledge at the end of my tether with a Welger ap63 baler. We did 800 bales last week and apart from the odd one or two being caught up in the bale sledge things were going well. But suddenly disaster struck and since then it has missed every fecin bale (excuse my French). Adjusted everything according to the book checked the knife,roll pins etc as would usually cause problems. We have checked the hay dogs replaced the cheese wedges inside the chamber and run it up by hand and in slow motion video,and it is tying properly but the bill hooks on both sides won’t release the knots and subsequently knots build up on the bill hook leaving lengths of string on top of the bales in the chamber. Could be something very simple that is completely obvious to the professional but I am completely lost. Please help or it’s going to be weighed in and the proceedings are going towards a blended Scottish drink!

 

[Dry Rot]

Twine tension? I check things like that with a spring balance, but I am no expert! Also, check the twine threading as I've been caught out with that before now.

Otherwise, go through all the checks in the handbook again.

 

[Boohoo]

Have you changed twine? Some balers don't like certain brands.

 

[Tubbylew]

Make sure the twine isn't getting snagged on the chamber by the tucker fingers, iv'e had that before now.

 

[Flat 10]

Long time ago but are those bill hooks have a cone shaped bits with a spiral insides? Take apart and clean if so. Worth a whirl if I have remembered correctly.
Thanks

 

[Greenmachine2]

Thank you for your help, but no joy I’m afraid. Will need to persevere again and hope for a different result????

 

[Tim G]

Do the bill hooks have too much tension on them and so aren't letting the knots go?

 

[Tubbylew]

Are the needles coming into the chamber in the right place, seems odd its missing both knots.

 

[Simon Chiles]

Hi all, wonder if you could enlighten me with your vast knowledge at the end of my tether with a Welger ap63 baler. We did 800 bales last week and apart from the odd one or two being caught up in the bale sledge things were going well. But suddenly disaster struck and since then it has missed every fecin bale (excuse my French). Adjusted everything according to the book checked the knife,roll pins etc as would usually cause problems. We have checked the hay dogs replaced the cheese wedges inside the chamber and run it up by hand and in slow motion video,and it is tying properly but the bill hooks on both sides won’t release the knots and subsequently knots build up on the bill hook leaving lengths of string on top of the bales in the chamber. Could be something very simple that is completely obvious to the professional but I am completely lost. Please help or it’s going to be weighed in and the proceedings are going towards a blended Scottish drink!

We need a lot more information than this, I’d get the jump if one of those missed a bale in every 10,000. Something must have happened for it to suddenly start missing even if it was only swapping string type/manufacturer. Have you any photos you could share? Have you tried emptying the chamber and then tripping the knotter whilst a mate turns it over by hand? When you say that you have set it up by the book how many turns did you tighten the twine retainer bolt by? Later versions said 4 turns without twine in the holder, earlier versions said 4.5 turns with twine in the holder, 3.5 without. Personally I’d go with the 4.5 turns with the twine in the holder as it then gives you a compensation for the twine thickness. It should cope with anything between 12,000 and 9250 trucker twine. I’ve had it before where it’s messed about all day despite checking all the setting only to find that changing the string cured it.

 

[Exfarmer]

I have never worked on welder balers but my thought is, is there any form of shear pin in the system which may have part sheared ( one of the MF knotters had this issue with a roll pin in the drive many years ago ) just letting the timing go a fraction.
you also do not say if it is one or both knotters?

 

[Hesstondriver]

sounds like a timing issue to me ?

 

[thesilentone]

Assuming your knotters are in good order.

The basics are simple.

1) One twine held in the retainer under a predetermined tension.
2) Second string enters via the needle, across the jaws of the bill-hook which rotates, opens, and picks up both strings, twists round one turn (closes) making the knot.
3) Retainer turns, grabs the next string while simultaneously, stripping the knot off the bill hook.


Possible problems (if everything is mechanically correct, starting with the most common.

1) String threaded wrongly
2) String tension wrong (old sisal 4-6lbs/pull, plastic 2-3 lbs/pull) to test use a simple weighing scale with a hook end.
3) Kneedle not set correctly, and in the wrong place at the bill-hook.
4) Does you baler have twine fingers on top of the chamber to guide the twine ?
5) Bill hook pivot pin worn (loose jaw on bill hook)
6) Bale density too high (you should not need chamber packers for hay) this stops the bale ' springing ' which in turn stops the knotter clearing properly
7) Worn retainer either not clearing the bill hook or losing the parked string
8) Retainer/strip arm knife blunt, not cutting the string properly
8) Worn drive gears affecting timing and smooth operation.

Most people simply tighten anything they can see, and make things worse.

Start at the beginning (string) check, then double check all settings

Turn-over by hand the right way Anti-clockwise standing in front of the flywheel, and watch carefully.

Hope this helps you, it will not be anything serious, but is a pain in the axxse !

NB: Having looked on the internet, I see the old Welgars did have twine finger guides on top of the chamber ( below the knotters). If yous has, make sure these are set correctly in relation to the kneedles when they enter.

 

[Hesston4860s]

Funny ole things knotters !. Sounds to me as if the stripper arms not fetching the knots off the billhooks. As for it working in slow mo turning by hand that’s all well and good, but once at speed it’s a different ball game all together !.

 

[bobk]

Funny ole things knotters !. Sounds to me as if the stripper arms not fetching the knots off the billhooks. As for it working in slow mo turning by hand that’s all well and good, but once at speed it’s a different ball game all together !.

Bent stripper arm , get the hammer out

 

[Tomr10]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/669267293441084/permalink/895132090854602/?sfnsn=mo

 

[livestock 1]

The baler could be out of timing. If it has stripper arms on the knotters that’s where to look first. Broken key roll pin or jumped a tooth somewhere

 

[Gapples]

Here a link to a Welger knotter in slow motion.

Ok it's not an ap63 but I would think much the same.

I've done many knotters, sadly not Welger, but if both sides have suddenly stopped working it's usually something obvious.

From what you say the bill hook is hanging onto the knot loop ? Not letting go ?
This was a problem sometimes with the IH 440 knotter when they got worn a bit, the string wears into the tongue & creates a groove.
The loop of the knot starts to hang on in that groove until it eventually snaps ( on an IH 440 )
You had to replace the tongue or grind a little bit off it to allow the knot to slip off the bill hook.

 

[essexpete]

I think the key here is the hanging on both. To me this points to things that would happen independently from the individual knotter set up.
Mis timed for some reason.
String change
Bales over heavy (although unlikely on this machine).

 

[thesilentone]

This shows there is no stripper arm, the retainer rotates only to cut the string, and catch the next piece, the pressure from the next bale strips the knot from the bill hook.

 

[Tubbylew]

Have you tried making a knot manually and pulling the knots off the billhooks by hand?