What’s the difference between “Regenarative Farming” and traditional “Mixed Farming”?

[Ffermer Bach]

OK, is rewilding regenerative?

That according to your measure is therefore the Holy Grail.

what everyone calls rewilding ~ locking the gate and walking away is not rewilding, it is abandoning.

What makes you think I am in favour of rewilding?

 

[Jackov Altraids]

What's the difference?

In terms of language, regenerative sounds like a movement while sustainable sounds like a state.

I'm just wondering how/ if this will be integrated into the Sustainable Farming Initiative.

 

[colhonk]

It is a fad name made up by those who eat well but do not have to try and grow it themselves.

 

[Jackov Altraids]

I do think it is more about 'branding'.

A bit like people trying to sell 'Bokashi'. Is it really that different to traditional middens?

 

[CopperBeech]

I think a state of restored wilderness is the closest you will get to total regeneration.
Regenerative agriculture is agriculture, but in my opinion, is as near to the former as allows for profitable food production: mimicking ecosystems to allow food production and doing as little damage to the environment as possible.

I get you to a point, but for us, it involves a lot of stock, a lot of electric fencing, high stocking rates, maximising profit from grass etc. We also look after a rewilding project now, it’s has 11 cows, 8 pigs and 4 ponies and spends money and makes nothing.

To me - regen ag = profit making sustainable ag.

Rewilding = vanity projects for the rich to say we are great while doing nothing with the land, getting paid subs and not paying tax.

 

[CopperBeech]

It is a fad name made up by those who eat well but do not have to try and grow it themselves.

Yer that’s me mate deffo

 

[CopperBeech]

Interesting that we are talking about regen ag vs rewilding. When the whole holistic planning thing started, it was very interesting.... the regen ag movement took this further and began to build a momentum and some very interesting and pretty well thought through stuff started to happen. Then as far as I can see, it got hijacked by the rewilders, and if I’m honest, deconstructed because a rewilders worst nightmare isn’t conventional farming ...... it’s regenerative agriculture. Rewilding says we must not farm to fix the planet, regen ag says we can farm, produce food and make money, whilst fixing the planet. Rewilders hate this......

And don’t get me started on ms Grindods ‘wilderculture’ rubbish

 

[Tim W]

organic is not necessarily regenerative. Organic often has to "move lots of soil" which is not regenerative. Organic is just following a set of rules that remove a lot of chemicals from the system, and have excellent marketing I will add. Regen is all about looking after the soil and building carbon content in the soil, so to my mind has a far more robust intellectual foundation.

There's a difference between organic principles and organic standards (organic looks after the soil at it's heart principle ---the name ''Soil Association'' is a hint)
Just as there will be differences between the principles and standards for regen

None of it matters unless you are trying to brand/sell/demand a premium

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

Interesting that we are talking about regen ag vs rewilding. When the whole holistic planning thing started, it was very interesting.... the regen ag movement took this further and began to build a momentum and some very interesting and pretty well thought through stuff started to happen. Then as far as I can see, it got hijacked by the rewilders, and if I’m honest, deconstructed because a rewilders worst nightmare isn’t conventional farming ...... it’s regenerative agriculture. Rewilding says we must not farm to fix the planet, regen ag says we can farm, produce food and make money, whilst fixing the planet. Rewilders hate this......

And don’t get me started on ms Grindods ‘wilderculture’ rubbish

I'm not sure which bit of my posts you are disagreeing with. Why would you say a rewilder's worst nightmare is regen ag and how would you say "they have hijacked it"?

Total rewilding is a luxury we cannot afford without a reduction in the population to somewhere round 250,000 (about what was living here before farming) who would all have to be full time foragers to survive.

You could also argue that conventional agriculture is a luxury we can't afford because of its reliance on chemical inputs and soil disturbance.

Which really only leaves regen ag or a mix of all three.

 

[Ffermer Bach]

There's a difference between organic principles and organic standards (organic looks after the soil at it's heart principle ---the name ''Soil Association'' is a hint)
Just as there will be differences between the principles and standards for regen

None of it matters unless you are trying to brand/sell/demand a premium

my only issue with arbitrary rules is (apart from the fact that I hate rules - bit of a rebel at heart!) why is it OK to top numerous times (to control weeds) burning diesel, but not OK to weed wipe with roundup when organic, or organic ploughing every 3 or 4 years, as opposed to direct drill with spraying off. I think it is possible to be organic without be regenerative.

 

[ajd132]

I find the term more and more annoying these days.
But basically as we run out of options with bag, bottle and diesel arable farming we are trying to find ways to replace these.

we are trying to the cause of the problem, not just treat the symptoms. Which is all conventional farming has been for years. It has been an incredibly lucrative business model for those selling the treatments. We need the same stuff every year!

Reducing our reliance on this stuff is important to me, but I have zero interest in organic farming and don’t mind using things if they are really needed, but an aim is to make it so all this stuff isn’t as routine as it currently is. Including glyphosate.

I did a talk a few weeks ago for a monitor farm and did have abit of rant about ‘regenerative’ and how it’s being thrown about.
It’s just a natural progression of conventional agriculture as we run out of quick fixes. The only thing that would change this direction of travel is if they throw us into a full GM American model, which looks god awful.

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

There's a difference between organic principles and organic standards (organic looks after the soil at it's heart principle ---the name ''Soil Association'' is a hint)
Just as there will be differences between the principles and standards for regen

None of it matters unless you are trying to brand/sell/demand a premium

From what I have seen of organic, anything other than organic grass is far from regenerative. Most involves alot of soil movement to control weeds and usually requires the importing of muck from less organic sources.

Doubtless, there are shining exceptions to the above.

 

[snarling bee]

The other word used in regen thinking is holistic.
Another word that gets people wound up. But call it "joined up thinking" and everyone agrees its a good thing.
I wouldn't call continuous wheat regenerative however it's tilled. Got to look at the bigger picture.

Same with the op.
Regen farming may practice traditional mixed farming.
Traditional mixed farming may be done regeneratively.
Neither may be the case.

My heavy clay grows good winter cereals, average spring cereals, average beans and OSR. But break crops are restricted to 1 in 8 for beans and OSR has huge problems with CSFB. I can think holistically and regeneratively and all the other fashionable terms, but I only make money from growing crops and I grow the crops that I can grow well. Cover crops are just an expensive nuisance IMO and I prefer FYM, compost and digested sewage sludge which have improved my OM measurably in the last few years.

Which ever way you look at it the homo sapiens has f**cked up this planet, and agriculture is only partly to blame. Somehow though we have to feed the world population and whether we like it or not intensive agriculture is here to stay, unless we can reduce the global 50% food waste to 10%. Although you could argue that successful agriculture is what has allowed the population to get to the potentially unsustainable that we now have.

Our soils do not erode, I usually want to get rid of water not conserve it, I am increasing my OM, I apply no P & K from a bag anymore, I chop all the straw that does not come back as muck, I use more PPP (herbicides and molluscicides) with DD. My soil movement is not much more than those using a tine DD if I choose to min till. I can easily claim to be Net Zero with 14.6MW of solar on my farm and 47.2 MW of batteries but that is just 'green washing'.

 

[Yale]

If DEFRA and the supply industries/parasites don't like the way you farm sustainably then you know you are getting the regenerative approach right.

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

My heavy clay grows good winter cereals, average spring cereals, average beans and OSR. But break crops are restricted to 1 in 8 for beans and OSR has huge problems with CSFB. I can think holistically and regeneratively and all the other fashionable terms, but I only make money from growing crops and I grow the crops that I can grow well. Cover crops are just an expensive nuisance IMO and I prefer FYM, compost and digested sewage sludge which have improved my OM measurabley in the last few years.

Which ever way you look at it the homo sapiens has f**cked up this planet, and agricultu.re is only partly to blame Somehow though we have to feed the world population and whether we like it or not intensive agriculture is here to stay, unless we can reduce the 50% waste to 10%.

Agriculture is entirely to blame because it's the one part of civilisation that allows civilisation to happen.

 

[ShooTa]

Mixed farming often still relies on outdated/contentious practices
Herbicides and pesticides and glyphos.
the "Kill the thing we dont want" approach
or Add things to make the system we want -ie fixing pH with lime to grow X -rahter than finding the thing that naturally grows well in the current pH

Regen ag seems to be based on the principle of using natural biology and systems to achieve a better solution.

 

[snarling bee]

If DEFRA and the supply industries/parasites don't like the way you farm sustainably then you know you are getting the regenerative approach right.

Most regen farmers are buying as much fert and agchem as they were before, with the added expense of cover crop seed.
Any regen farmer telling you otherwise was using too much in the first place. We can all cut down our chem/fert inputs with only a small loss in output.

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

Most regen farmers are buying as much fert and agchem as they were before, with the added expense of cover crop seed.
Any regen farmer telling you otherwise was using too much in the first place. We can all cut down our chem/fert inputs with only a small loss in output.

Most regen farmers I know are using less than they were before (without the added expense of ploughing and cultivating) and yes, most of them probably think they were using too much in the first place.

 

[Lowland1]

I’ve read Gabe Brown and agree a lot of it and i am having a go at it. However it’s worh remembering that he talks about multiple revenue streams for success. Some of his revenue streams involve farm tours and lecture tours all of which he gets paid for so he’s unlikely to be saying ‘It’s not working so i bought a plough and some roundup’. Personally no matter what it’s called the idea is working for us it’s not so much about yield but more about profitability.

 

[glasshouse]

As above.
I would have thought that the traditional mixed farming system ,utilising Grass leys for livestock, and then planting cereals into those leys is the same as regenerative farming
I am obviously missing something??
Is it the economics of the system , especially if one is paying a high rent or mortgage equivalent..
Forgot to say.
As mixed farming/regenerative farming needs livestock, that is at direct odds with Supermarkets , Vegans etc etc , trying to manipulate the general public to switch to a vegan diet , to enable the supermarkets to increase there profits !!!

The only difference is the level of hot air