what are rules using red diesel in tractor when it should be white?

[Simon Chiles]

with due respect,
you have contradicted yourself in the above post, and after looking into it some years ago, I do think you are wrong on this one about part of the harvest operation

You’d better point out which bit is a contradiction.
I think I ought to point out that I, with others, wrote the memorandum of agreement so have probably a much better understanding than most of the rules.

 

[Pennine Ploughing]

You’d better point out which bit is a contradiction.
I think I ought to point out that I, with others, wrote the memorandum of agreement so have probably a much better understanding than most of the rules.

writing the rules is one thing, judge interpretation may be an other,
so as you say if the job was only caring grain from farm store to mill it would be haulage,
yet you go on to say , if carting grain off the combine to farm store is the only job the 1 man band contractor does its part of the harvest operation, how can it be as the only bit he is doing is 1 tractor and trailer, he is not harvesting, it's haulage, this is 1 of the reasons I gave up contacting some time ago,
local firm had JCB fastrac impounded by C&E they asked for 12k to get outfit back in back duty, or they would go through the accounts with a fine tooth comb, they paid the 12k

 

[Simon Chiles]

writing the rules is one thing, judge interpretation may be an other,
so as you say if the job was only caring grain from farm store to mill it would be haulage,
yet you go on to say , if carting grain off the combine to farm store is the only job the 1 man band contractor does its part of the harvest operation, how can it be as the only bit he is doing is 1 tractor and trailer, he is not harvesting, it's haulage, this is 1 of the reasons I gave up contacting some time ago,
local firm had JCB fastrac impounded by C&E they asked for 12k to get outfit back in back duty, or they would go through the accounts with a fine tooth comb, they paid the 12k

In our discussions with the revenue it was agreed that there are situations when you need extra tractors and trailers as part of the harvesting operation. Because part of that involves going off the road it’s a job that can’t realistically be done by a truck and is therefore an acceptable activity, it’s classed as being part of the agricultural operation and the road use is incidental to the activity.
Going to a farm and hauling produce with a tractor if you’re not part of the agricultural operation is unfair competition with road haulage and therefore not acceptable.
You’re right in that all cases are judged according to the situation.

 

[Roy_H]

@Kevtherev @llamedos
I think this deserves a thread of its own.

As for the copper, PC Colin Astley, he is well known for stopping anything agricultural and making up offences on the spot as the above clearly demonstrates. His reputation is legendary, this does not surprise me one bit. What does surprise me is that complaints haven't been made (perhaps they have) and that he's allowed to use his position in what seems like a vendetta against farmers.

Is PC Astley related to PC Savage perchance?

Joking apart, its a bloody minefield! there was a famous case some years ago whereby a farmer got 'done' for taking a trailer load of farm scrap to his local scrapyard , the tractor he was using had red diesel in the tank, he was told in no uncertain terms that hauling scrap metal ( Even farm scrap from his own farm ) was not classed as an 'Agricultural Activity'.

 

[Tomtrac]

Regarding the rear lights and bike
The said governing body seem to think if there is a vehicle on the road and its got a fault regardless if the fault caused the accident it shouldnt off been there so its at fault
But if you didnt use that vehicle you would still of done the work so still been there at the same time place just with a different vehicle
I disagree totally regard drink driving but if somebody runs into a drunk driver even if the drink driver is at no fault/stoped it is still the drunk drivers fault
Similar to the none working tail light

 

[Grassman]

@Kevtherev @llamedos
I think this deserves a thread of its own.

As for the copper, PC Colin Astley, he is well known for stopping anything agricultural and making up offences on the spot as the above clearly demonstrates. His reputation is legendary, this does not surprise me one bit. What does surprise me is that complaints haven't been made (perhaps they have) and that he's allowed to use his position in what seems like a vendetta against farmers.

If someone is certain the policeman is wrong then contest this and report to the chief constable for the area.
Also a complaint higher up the chain may lead to his removal from office.
If he is actually targeting farmers and knowingly issuing incorrect fines he could be committing a serious offence himself.

 

[Skimmer]

OK, here’s an actual case that you all may wish to ponder on.

A farm worker was driving a telescopic loader on the road, he’d taken the muck grab off and was transporting it on a trailer towed by the telescopic loader. Whilst on road a motorcycle came screaming around the corner, cranked right over and on wrong side of the road. The motorcycle crashed into the front of the telescopic loader and it’s rider was killed. In the subsequent investigation it was found that the trailer had a faulty rear brake light. Both the farm worker and the farm manager received four year custodial sentences for using a defective vehicle on the road.

Now I consider this harsh, the rear light had no effect on the outcome of the accident and from my point of view the farm worker was just in the wrong place at the wrong time but when it all goes wrong you’ve got to expect the authorities to go through everything with a fine toothed comb.

I think there must be a bit more to it than a blown rear end bulb but even so it was a safety issue not custom & excise, but you are quite right it is bad advice.

 

[Tarw Coch]

Is PC Astley related to PC Savage perchance?

Joking apart, there was a famous case some years ago whereby a farmer got 'done' for taking a trailer load of farm scrap to his local scrapyard , the tractor he was using had red diesel in the tank, he was told in no uncertain terms that hauling scrap metal ( Even farm scrap from his own farm ) was not classed as an 'Agricultural Activity'.

I'm not sure that's not right either. I was always under the impression that anything agricultural was ok on red and that would include waste generated on the farm such as plastic or indeed scrap. What wouldn't be acceptable is chucking an old freezer, washing machine etc on the load as that would be classed as domestic..............although plenty of farms have a fridge down the yard for vaccines etc and some will have a farm washing machine which would strictly speaking be ok but good luck with proving that.

 

[Tomtrac]

If someone is certain the policeman is wrong then contest this and report to the chief constable for the area.
Also a complaint higher up the chain may lead to his removal from office.
If he is actually targeting farmers and knowingly issuing incorrect fines he could be committing a serious offence himself.

It will take a farmer with big balls to SAY NO and take it to court and a risk off a big fine

 

[Philip Watkins]

As you can see I run a mog. I have been trying to understand the rules for 20 years, and I'm still no better off!
.....
Travelling to a field to do farm fencing is ok if your the farmer but as a contractor my livelihood is from fencing not farming so can red be used?
I know that a mog is not supposed to carry anything on its bed but can on a trailer. ( From bitter experience, I got pulled and had a roll of plain wire on the back of the mog and had an empty trailer on, everything legal, air brakes etc. They didn't know anything about 3 point linkages or pto's! In the end they called the mog a forestry machine)
Carrying the fence posts is ok if it's for the priced fencing job but not ok to supply the farmer.
But what about the farm contractors, his livelihood is from the contracting not the farming, and as for the biomass maize gangs that is an energy crop not a food crop!

It is a complete mine field! It is very difficult to have a black and white rule book and rules will always be bent!

This saga will continue as long as rebated fuel us allowed.

Fence contractor in Herefordshire had his day in court and won. He uses a Mog. Have a word, sounds like you're in the same situation he was.

 

[Grassman]

It will take a farmer with big balls to SAY NO and take it to court and a risk off a big fine

Not really if sure of his facts. The combine incident seems obviously wrong (unless we are only hearing part of the story).
Police do not make the rules!

 

[Simon Chiles]

It will take a farmer with big balls to SAY NO and take it to court and a risk off a big fine

The person with the combine would be best, absolutely clear cut that it was being used for agricultural purposes. Claas Avero ( 4 walkers) would have been under 3 m wide so no need for Ag Dispensation.

 

[Tarw Coch]

It will take a farmer with big balls to SAY NO and take it to court and a risk off a big fine

I would say this case is pretty black and white although no doubt will be stressful, time consuming and costly for the person involved. It might just be easier to pay up and move on.

I know a guy who picked up a load of fodder beet from a mates farm and was stopped by the above copper for being overweight and made to drive several miles to a weigh bridge. The size of trailer was too small for it to be over the maximum weight so when copper couldn't get him on that he then tried on being overweight for the plated weight of the trailer but again not an issue. He gave a thorough inspection of tractor and trailer but again could find nothing wrong. By this time a couple of hours had passed and the copper came up with insecure load as he had seen a beet fall off. No mention had been made of it before and he had no evidence to prove this but equally the farmer couldn't prove that it hadn't happened. But surely if that is what he had seen he would have said that that was why he had stopped the tractor and trailer wouldn't he rather than wait untill he had exhausted all other possibilities of booking him. As I say, this copper has a reputation and in cases such as this it's much easier to pay up rather than contest something that can't be proved either way.

 

[Grassman]

I would say this case is pretty black and white although no doubt will be stressful, time consuming and costly for the person involved. It might just be easier to pay up and move on.

I know a guy who picked up a load of fodder beet from a mates farm and was stopped by the above copper for being overweight and made to drive several miles to a weigh bridge. The size of trailer was too small for it to be over the maximum weight so when copper couldn't get him on that he then tried on being overweight for the plated weight of the trailer but again not an issue. He gave a thorough inspection of tractor and trailer but again could find nothing wrong. By this time a couple of hours had passed and the copper came up with insecure load as he had seen a beet fall off. No mention had been made of it before and he had no evidence to prove this but equally the farmer couldn't prove that it hadn't happened. But surely if that is what he had seen he would have said that that was why he had stopped the tractor and trailer wouldn't he rather than wait untill he had exhausted all other possibilities of booking him. As I say, this copper has a reputation and in cases such as this it's much easier to pay up rather than contest something that can't be proved either way.

If he was picking on black youths like this he would be removed from his job.
Stand up for your rights!

 

[Tarw Coch]

If he was picking on black youths like this he would be removed from his job.
Stand up for your rights!

Racism is illegal, farmer bashing isn't.

 

[Condi]

It will take a farmer with big balls to SAY NO and take it to court and a risk off a big fine

Not really, for any and every offense you are entitled to take it to court, and at that point the onus is on the police to prove to a judge that you have broken the law. It doesnt cost anything until you start employing solicitors, but people do represent themselves for free. The court cant impose an additional punishment (fine) than what you have been given.

 

[Pheasant Surprise]

Just to add to the confusion!

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.britishdrillingassociation.co.uk/user_uploads/2015%20-%2010%20hmrc%20rules%20-%20use%20of%20red%20diesel.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwi3lKS824HXAhXFDxoKHQBpBHQQFghtMAE&usg=AOvVaw3FXQZtaAIeu1G80z3SY4-K

That’s written from the perspective of construction and works trucks (and tractors used on site duties) using red diesel on the roads.

Costain’s lawyers would have been all over that before it was released for publication with their moniker in the footer. There’s also a link to Excise Notice 75 and the famed MoU from HMRC. It all looks squeaky clean to me.

What part did you find confusing?

 

[Simon Chiles]

I would say this case is pretty black and white although no doubt will be stressful, time consuming and costly for the person involved. It might just be easier to pay up and move on.

I know a guy who picked up a load of fodder beet from a mates farm and was stopped by the above copper for being overweight and made to drive several miles to a weigh bridge. The size of trailer was too small for it to be over the maximum weight so when copper couldn't get him on that he then tried on being overweight for the plated weight of the trailer but again not an issue. He gave a thorough inspection of tractor and trailer but again could find nothing wrong. By this time a couple of hours had passed and the copper came up with insecure load as he had seen a beet fall off. No mention had been made of it before and he had no evidence to prove this but equally the farmer couldn't prove that it hadn't happened. But surely if that is what he had seen he would have said that that was why he had stopped the tractor and trailer wouldn't he rather than wait untill he had exhausted all other possibilities of booking him. As I say, this copper has a reputation and in cases such as this it's much easier to pay up rather than contest something that can't be proved either way.

By just accepting it and paying the fines you’re fuelling his appetite, in the situation of your fodder beet hauling mate I’d have told him to get stuffed and I’d see him in court. He’d have dropped it like a hot potato, he’d need a beet as evidence first and even if the worst came to the worst and he turned up it court with a beet in an evidence bag I’d ask him to prove it was mine, I’d play him at his own game and probably say that any farmer could clearly see that it was a different variety to the type I’d grown. See how far he could get with that one. Don’t forget that it’s not his decision whether you go to court or not, he has to make a case to the CPS who decide whether or not it’s in the public interest to proceed, a point worth pointing out to him at the roadside.
I think the time has come to all club together and get all the parties who have been incorrectly fined to write a letter to the local chief constable and demand your fines back. It needn’t cost anything just a clear statement in each case of why he was wrong and evidence of harassment. At the moment the officer in question is probably looking as though he is super efficient, you need to p on his bonfire. In the light of police cut backs you’ll probably find he’ll be the first to get the tin tac if you all present a case against him.

 

[Tarw Coch]

By just accepting it and paying the fines you’re fuelling his appetite, in the situation of your fodder beet hauling mate I’d have told him to get stuffed and I’d see him in court. He’d have dropped it like a hot potato, he’d need a beet as evidence first and even if the worst came to the worst and he turned up it court with a beet in an evidence bag I’d ask him to prove it was mine, I’d play him at his own game and probably say that any farmer could clearly see that it was a different variety to the type I’d grown. See how far he could get with that one. Don’t forget that it’s not his decision whether you go to court or not, he has to make a case to the CPS who decide whether or not it’s in the public interest to proceed, a point worth pointing out to him at the roadside.
I think the time has come to all club together and get all the parties who have been incorrectly fined to write a letter to the local chief constable and demand your fines back. It needn’t cost anything just a clear statement in each case of why he was wrong and evidence of harassment. At the moment the officer in question is probably looking as though he is super efficient, you need to p on his bonfire. In the light of police cut backs you’ll probably find he’ll be the first to get the tin tac if you all present a case against him.

I've never had a run in with this copper but could probably have written a book on stories I've heard, most of which I've forgot. Unfortunately I suspect many farmers really don't want to set aside the time, hassle and stress of challenging him, easier to pay a small fine/accept 3 points.
Although not police/law related I've had a couple of spats with big companies over incorrect billing in the last year and spent a lot of time writing letters setting out my case whilst under the threat of court action. And whilst I've been 100% sure I'm in the right that doesn't guarantee that if I got to court I would win despite what I would consider overwhelming evidence, big companies can be very persistent in their attitude that they are right and not listening to your side, it really is very stressful, worrying and time consuming. I've now won against one of them who have accepted that I don't owe them a further £150 or thereabouts but it really would have been easier to pay the money and forget it.
I'm sure if faced with being booked for a minor traffic offence with relatively small fine it would be easier to pay up than fight it.

 

[windymiller]

The only angle I can see where the copper was trying to come from was that the combine had the header behind him, but surely that still wouldn't make any difference would it.