what are rules using red diesel in tractor when it should be white?

[Simon Chiles]

So if you're using a tractor that's normally on the farm and on red for occasional haulage - I'm thinking of moving a digger from town to local building site - is it ok just to chuck a tankful of DERV in? Obviously if stopped and dipped there would still be some red in the tank. I bet it isn't that simple, though it should be!

Technically no, because of the tax. I get that. But it's not for reward as such as it's just a favour. So even if I put a tankful of white in, I guess I'd still get what, fined? Tractor impounded?

The law says that for an agricultural vehicle to be entitled to use rebated fuel it has to be used solely for the purposes of agriculture, horticulture or forestry. The key word is solely. It means entirely ie you can’t use it for any other purposes not even once. You’ve got to realise that this bit is essential for an enforcement point of view, otherwise you can imagine that everyone, once caught, would insist that that was the first time they’d evaded the tax.

 

[Simon Chiles]

Unless you are doing it on regular basis you are unlikely to get caught so I wouldn't worry about otherwise you need to run on white permanently.

I don’t think that’s very good advice. Just imagine that he was just doing his mate a favour and hauling an excavator to a building site. On the journey a woman with three kids in a car suddenly pulls out in front of him and because he didn’t have enough distance to stop in she, and her kids, are killed. When it all hits the fan it’s discovered that the tractor driver should have had a tachometer, o license, hgv license, mot and is guilty of tax evasion. I don’t suppose a plea of ‘I was just helping a mate out’ will count for much, or stating that a bloke on an Internet forum said it would probably be ok.

 

[Simon Chiles]

Local contractors combine absolute madness
Poor show Dyfed Powys police [emoji35]

Do you know them? They should make a complaint and get their fine back, pm me if they need advice. I spoke to someone else who was wrongly fined in the past and helped them word their letter of complaint. They not only got the fine repaid but also got a letter of apology from head office. However I must point out that I’m only willing to help in instances that are completely innocent, I’m not going to get you ( meaning anyone) out of a situation where you have been breaking the law. The combine is a clear cut case, I don’t think there is anything that could be as easy to prove that it was being used for agricultural purposes.

 

[Simon Chiles]

The system I mentioned had a complete purge system built in, but vosa were not interested

They weren’t interested because you need to change the taxation class as well as the fuel. If you like you can consider your Ag machine tax class as your license to use rebates fuel on the road but only for the purposes of Ag, Hort, and forestry.

 

[sawdust]

They weren’t interested because you need to change the taxation class as well as the fuel. If you like you can consider your Ag machine tax class as your license to use rebates fuel on the road but only for the purposes of Ag, Hort, and forestry.

I know what your saying, but these are hgv's trying to save money when driving off road, the taxation class should not make any difference as they were back running on white whenever they hit the tar, but vosa were having none of it.

 

[Skimmer]

I don’t think that’s very good advice. Just imagine that he was just doing his mate a favour and hauling an excavator to a building site. On the journey a woman with three kids in a car suddenly pulls out in front of him and because he didn’t have enough distance to stop in she, and her kids, are killed. When it all hits the fan it’s discovered that the tractor driver should have had a tachometer, o license, hgv license, mot and is guilty of tax evasion. I don’t suppose a plea of ‘I was just helping a mate out’ will count for much, or stating that a bloke on an Internet forum said it would probably be ok.

That has Absolutely nothing to do with what colour the fuel was, it would have made no difference to the accident.

 

[Skimmer]

• I have just had a couple of drinks with a friend who got caught towing diggers on red diesel his advice is "Don't do it " they go through everything.

 

[Pheasant Surprise]

friend who got caught running diggers on red diesel

What else would you run them on?

 

[Tomtrac]

Dual tanks are not, nor have ever been legal. Forget all about them.

It’s really quite simple if you think about it. Just remember two things.

One, if it’s for yourself, the job being carried out must be purely agricultural. That’s hauling stuff, produce or machinery to carry out agri work. (Ie, moving a digger on a low loader to dig ditches is for agricultural benefit. Hauling the same digger to the same field to dig out footings for a new shed is construction so it should be moved on white diesel)

Two, if you are carrying out contract agri work, the tractors running on the road must be part of an in field agri operation all owned by the same company ( ie tractors and trailers hauling grass from a forager) .
If you are called in to help as an extra trailer haulier then you are not classed as part of the operation, but classed as a haulier, for hire and reward, therefore you must run on white.

Another key phrase is “agricultural land improvement”. If the operation you are carrying out is deemed as improving agricultural land then you regally can’t go wrong. Even travelling to kill grass with roundup will eventually lead to a new crop so it’s agri land improvement.




Cutting playing fields is not agricultural land improvement. Topping your field next door is, but because part of the trip is to cut the playing field, white diesel should be used.

I had the rule book thrown at me and at the time say fifteen years ago they/it said as above if you are harvesting you can cart but not use a subby they are hauling they even tryd to say that if i cut hedges on a road on my farm i am ilegal as i have a bussiness intest but if its for a naibour for free its ok
White is for roads
All plant ie quarry machines and diggers use red
If your 3cx jcb type machine is on a road with its OWN spare buckets in the front bucket its fine but if you are carrying gravel/stone or fence posts its should be on white as its haulage a friend got done a few years back nr Middlesbrough on a jcb
If a tractor is taxed as agriculural it has to have red if it is to use white it has to have the £300 a year tax so cannot change from one to another an other man i know has two tractors on white and the £300 year tax to cart soil etc and do septic tanks he cannot put red in to cart silo etc because they arnt agri tax
There is no black and white rules its how they are interpuaited
Sorry for speling

 

[Tomtrac]

So if you're using a tractor that's normally on the farm and on red for occasional haulage - I'm thinking of moving a digger from town to local building site - is it ok just to chuck a tankful of DERV in? Obviously if stopped and dipped there would still be some red in the tank. I bet it isn't that simple, though it should be!

Its not
If you are colecting /returning a digger for forestry/farming its ok but for a house-building its not
I got stopped using a low loader going to forestry so i was told i had to put the digger in a big tipper type trailor so i was using the trailor in the forest to cart stone as part of the work not just moving the machine
There where different rules in different county's ie cumbria/lancashire and yorkshire

 

[Tomtrac]

Local contractors combine absolute madness
Poor show Dyfed Powys police [emoji35]

Sounds to me the local traffic cops caught his wife in bed with a farmer and has got a vendetta and eaten the rule book but interpreted it wrong there is a width limit then you do need an escort vehicle etc and then a movement order but still agri use

 

[Tarw Coch]

Local contractors combine absolute madness
Poor show Dyfed Powys police [emoji35]

@Kevtherev @llamedos
I think this deserves a thread of its own.

As for the copper, PC Colin Astley, he is well known for stopping anything agricultural and making up offences on the spot as the above clearly demonstrates. His reputation is legendary, this does not surprise me one bit. What does surprise me is that complaints haven't been made (perhaps they have) and that he's allowed to use his position in what seems like a vendetta against farmers.

 

[Kevtherev]

@Kevtherev @llamedos
I think this deserves a thread of its own.

As for the copper, PC Colin Astley, he is well known for stopping anything agricultural and making up offences on the spot as the above clearly demonstrates. His reputation is legendary, this does not surprise me one bit. What does surprise me is that complaints haven't been made (perhaps they have) and that he's allowed to use his position in what seems like a vendetta against farmers.

I think there is a petition being started by a well known local farmer from adfa.
Time this silliness was stopped.

 

[roscoe erf]

Local contractors combine absolute madness
Poor show Dyfed Powys police [emoji35]

i hope they challenged it

 

[Pennine Ploughing]

Actually @Cab-over Pete was wrong in his interpretation. If you were hauling gain ( or silage etc ) from the harvester back to the farm you would be part of the harvesting ( therefore agricultural) operation and it would be OK on red. Hauling the grain etc from the farm to a mill etc would be haulage if that was the only part of the operation you’d done. If you had been part of the whole operation ( ie you’d planted the crop or fertilised it, and you could prove it ) then you’d be part of the agricultural operation and you could do exactly the same as you could if it were your own farm.

with due respect,
you have contradicted yourself in the above post, and after looking into it some years ago, I do think you are wrong on this one about part of the harvest operation

 

[Skimmer]

What else would you run them on?

Edited

 

[Bushmog]

As you can see I run a mog. I have been trying to understand the rules for 20 years, and I'm still no better off!
My thoughts:
The basics on the road,
If you are travelling to a field, to work on it that grows a crop, you're ok.
If you are hauling your own produce to store/ market etc, you're ok.
The 'I've been told'
Your hauling a digger to clear farm ditches , if the tractor has a loader or dozer blade and is part of the digging operation your ok.
The I'm not sure:
Travelling to a field to do farm fencing is ok if your the farmer but as a contractor my livelihood is from fencing not farming so can red be used?
I know that a mog is not supposed to carry anything on its bed but can on a trailer. ( From bitter experience, I got pulled and had a roll of plain wire on the back of the mog and had an empty trailer on, everything legal, air brakes etc. They didn't know anything about 3 point linkages or pto's! In the end they called the mog a forestry machine)
Carrying the fence posts is ok if it's for the priced fencing job but not ok to supply the farmer.
But what about the farm contractors, his livelihood is from the contracting not the farming, and as for the biomass maize gangs that is an energy crop not a food crop!

It is a complete mine field! It is very difficult to have a black and white rule book and rules will always be bent!

This saga will continue as long as rebated fuel us allowed.

 

[sawdust]

The fuel station in our village (1/2 mile from A30) has three pumps, Petrol, Derv & Red

Local Ag contractors regularly fill up there.

Ok, try pulling up with an out of town fully fledged road going Lorry, fill with red and see how far you can get before the local pump man phones cops.

 

[Pheasant Surprise]

Edited

Ah I see. Big difference a word makes

 

[Simon Chiles]

That has Absolutely nothing to do with what colour the fuel was, it would have made no difference to the accident.

OK, here’s an actual case that you all may wish to ponder on.

A farm worker was driving a telescopic loader on the road, he’d taken the muck grab off and was transporting it on a trailer towed by the telescopic loader. Whilst on road a motorcycle came screaming around the corner, cranked right over and on wrong side of the road. The motorcycle crashed into the front of the telescopic loader and it’s rider was killed. In the subsequent investigation it was found that the trailer had a faulty rear brake light. Both the farm worker and the farm manager received four year custodial sentences for using a defective vehicle on the road.

Now I consider this harsh, the rear light had no effect on the outcome of the accident and from my point of view the farm worker was just in the wrong place at the wrong time but when it all goes wrong you’ve got to expect the authorities to go through everything with a fine toothed comb.