Wood biomass dodgy installer help/advice appreciated

[Happiness]

Building regs compliance certificate.

 

[Farfrae]

Interesting to see that they can still be found on both the NAPIT website and the MCS sites.

 

[Happiness]

Interesting to see that they can still be found on both the NAPIT website and the MCS sites.

NAPIT will take action after mid January if the installer has not put right by that deadline. Legally they have to be given time to correct the mistakes before they get sanctioned. If they lose NAPIT accreditation they then lose MCS accreditation.

 

[akaPABLO01]

RECC & MCS don't have any teeth, I suspect they would be struck off the accreditation for non compliance and depending on their business model probably dissolve and reboot if compensation is sought.

I went through a similar scenario with a couple who spent a small fortune and the company didn't care. They didn't renew MCS therefore RECC became redundant. Ofgem lays blame with the applicant as (owner) and will withdraw RHI indiscriminately whether it is a fault of the installer. If the boiler is still in warranty this will be void due to installation not in line with manufacturers guidelines.

NAPIT will sanction the company but will hold no weight.

You need to speak with farming union for advice on specialist solicitors in this field quickly, if they cannot help you need to seek out your own. This will cost money and they will shut the company down.

You need to face the harsh reality, you'll probably not get any compensation and may lose RHI. you need to seperate your system to supply heat to your home firstly and then look at an additional source.

Maybe invest in air source for a cottage on a 7 year domestic return that can double your ROI and claw a few quid back with speculation or single loop gshp.

I have witnessed families broken down with these types of cowboys. I feel very sorry for your situation. Be careful about reprisal with litigation or slander in your pursuit.

Draw up the bridge, follow up napit and assess your options to comply with RHI, supply heat to properties that will efficiently run from the boiler and disconnect and install ashp or gshp on the other(s) for a return on your first investment.

Good luck

 

[Happiness]

RECC & MCS don't have any teeth, I suspect they would be struck off the accreditation for non compliance and depending on their business model probably dissolve and reboot if compensation is sought.

I went through a similar scenario with a couple who spent a small fortune and the company didn't care. They didn't renew MCS therefore RECC became redundant. Ofgem lays blame with the applicant as (owner) and will withdraw RHI indiscriminately whether it is a fault of the installer. If the boiler is still in warranty this will be void due to installation not in line with manufacturers guidelines.

NAPIT will sanction the company but will hold no weight.

You need to speak with farming union for advice on specialist solicitors in this field quickly, if they cannot help you need to seek out your own. This will cost money and they will shut the company down.

You need to face the harsh reality, you'll probably not get any compensation and may lose RHI. you need to seperate your system to supply heat to your home firstly and then look at an additional source.

Maybe invest in air source for a cottage on a 7 year domestic return that can double your ROI and claw a few quid back with speculation or single loop gshp.

I have witnessed families broken down with these types of cowboys. I feel very sorry for your situation. Be careful about reprisal with litigation or slander in your pursuit.

Draw up the bridge, follow up napit and assess your options to comply with RHI, supply heat to properties that will efficiently run from the boiler and disconnect and install ashp or gshp on the other(s) for a return on your first investment.

Good luck

Thank you very much for this sobering advice. We have been coming to terms with that reality. We are aware that regulatory bodies are a waste of time, however due to the money involved its not one of those times where you can just chalk it up to experience.

 

[Half Pipe]

THAT'S IT ????
OFGEM APPROVED THAT ???
No details what ever ?
No flow and return schematic -meters-probes -pipe size-ANYTHING ?
How did the application get approved on that ???
How long ago was it passed ?
Anyhow looks like direct to indirect system to my un -qualified eye .
Why the buffer tank then more hot water tanks -this most prob. the losses in heat transfering all the time is wasted.
Is your boiler doing heating and water heating .
Is this all on your rhi application -don't put all on here as public but there should be paper trail of signed off Ofgem check list stuff too.
Does fathom belief on 1st look though ???

buffer tank very important for a batch boiler, as its needed to supply heating system when boiler has burnt all fuel that was loaded, but as the boiler is already struggling to cope, it never has spare to he's the buffer, bit hand to mouth kinda thing, hence reason its never ending job filling it, any manualy filled batch boiler needs to be much higher put put than a out filled boiler, be it pellets, chip, oil gas as these can run 24/7 if heat load requires.
we have a 40kw vigas with 3000l buffer and its enough work for single house.

the farm has a farm 2000 120kw with 10000l buffer and it only get filled one per day, burns it all in about 6hours, but bufferacts like a battery and supplys heat for rest of day.
it cost less than half what you have been charged, although no underground pipeing which can be expensive

 

[Bloders]

buffer tank very important for a batch boiler, as its needed to supply heating system when boiler has burnt all fuel that was loaded, but as the boiler is already struggling to cope, it never has spare to he's the buffer, bit hand to mouth kinda thing, hence reason its never ending job filling it, any manualy filled batch boiler needs to be much higher put put than a out filled boiler, be it pellets, chip, oil gas as these can run 24/7 if heat load requires.
we have a 40kw vigas with 3000l buffer and its enough work for single house.

the farm has a farm 2000 120kw with 10000l buffer and it only get filled one per day, burns it all in about 6hours, but bufferacts like a battery and supplys heat for rest of day.
it cost less than half what you have been charged, although no underground pipeing which can be expensive

Sorry to go OT.
On the Farm2000 does the boiler shut down when it runs out of fuel?
Our GlenFarrow doest. We use it like you, though if you dont shut it down when empty, with the fan blowing it effectively send a LOT of warm air up the chimney and cooles the buffer tank.
I have nearly finished a mod to the control system that will automatically shut it down when t has run out of fuel, though i think it is a fundamental feature that should be in the boiler controls.

 

[Half Pipe]

the farm 2000 burns alot of wood, but much easier loaded with larger bits of wood, so less processing and easier loaded through large door than the small door on a vigas, which I suspect is similiar to your boiler.
as farm 2000 has a high output, it means its rhi potential is high, but we will never max it as you have unfortunately found with your setup

 

[Half Pipe]

Sorry to go OT.
On the Farm2000 does the boiler shut down when it runs out of fuel?
Our GlenFarrow doest. We use it like you, though if you dont shut it down when empty, with the fan blowing it effectively send a LOT of warm air up the chimney and cooles the buffer tank.
I have nearly finished a mod to the control system that will automatically shut it down when t has run out of fuel, though i think it is a fundamental feature that should be in the boiler controls.

the farm 2000 relies on a timer for fan, so we have to learn how long to set it for volume/type of wood we have put in it. Ideally leaving some embers
as you have suggested it not good to leave fan running with no fuel.
that's one area the vigas wins over farm2000 , as it has a temperature probe in chimney, that shuts fan down when temp drops after fire goes out, this has an adjustable temp setting.
be interested to hear how you have modified your boiler

 

[Bloders]

the farm 2000 relies on a timer for fan, so we have to learn how long to set it for volume/type of wood we have put in it. Ideally leaving some embers
as you have suggested it not good to leave fan running with no fuel.
that's one area the vigas wins over farm2000 , as it has a temperature probe in chimney, that shuts fan down when temp drops after fire goes out, this has an adjustable temp setting.
be interested to hear how you have modified your boiler

My modification is not complete yet, and its not complex. Fortunately i work with a couple of Electrical Engineers who have helped me with the circuit for me. My design had about 4 relays in it, whereas now its one relay, one start switch, a temp sensor and a time delay switch.
In essence, when the boiler control demands heat, it turns the fan on.
My mod is that IF there is fan demand and IF the flue temp is low, it shuts down the circulation pump and teh fan, with a adjustable time delay to allow for the fire to get going.
I think the parts have cost me £50 or less. We just need a couple of quiet days in the office to finish building the sub circuit for me to add it in.

 

[Still Farming]

buffer tank very important for a batch boiler, as its needed to supply heating system when boiler has burnt all fuel that was loaded, but as the boiler is already struggling to cope, it never has spare to he's the buffer, bit hand to mouth kinda thing, hence reason its never ending job filling it, any manualy filled batch boiler needs to be much higher put put than a out filled boiler, be it pellets, chip, oil gas as these can run 24/7 if heat load requires.
we have a 40kw vigas with 3000l buffer and its enough work for single house.

the farm has a farm 2000 120kw with 10000l buffer and it only get filled one per day, burns it all in about 6hours, but bufferacts like a battery and supplys heat for rest of day.
it cost less than half what you have been charged, although no underground pipeing which can be expensive

As we know it complex.
Even good or goodish systems need help now and then?

 

[Still Farming]

Any progress yet @Happiness !

 

[Happiness]

Any progress yet @Happiness !

Yes. We have progress. Installer has advised that moving forward they will be looking to correct as per NAPITS report.

We do not have a lot of detail though and they are being quite vague. Such as ' will you accept a 60 kW boiler' without providing make, model, chamber size etc. So we have a way to go, but its a step in the better direction.

 

[Happiness]

As we know it complex.
Even good or goodish systems need help now and then?

Putting this out there to help anyone who may be having similar issues and also for feedback on what others would do if they were in same situation; So this is where we are at now.
Current incorrect 40kw installation generating around 92000 a year, over 20 years it equates to RHI payback of roughly £53,280. We will be spending around £80000 on wood at least.
If we had the 60kw boiler put in back in 2015 we would on 92000kw/h per annum have got back £69,640.

If we have the 40kw boiler taken out and 60kw boiler put in we will lose our current RHI tariff and (if put in before April) will get back £53280 over the 20 years based on 92000kw/h. Less than now, but hopefully won't have to fill the chamber so much or use so much wood from the system being (hopefully) corrected.

Due to installer mistakes, we are losing about £20,000 in RHI payments alone, not including losses already from wasted wood / wood processing / time / lost cottage bookings / payments to others for reports.

If you were in this situation what would you do? Be happy and thankful with a corrected system and chalk it up or at least try to recover some compensation?

 

[Still Farming]

Is there ways possibily to use for space heating only in house and cottages and use other method for hot water maybe as you will still be in scheme and have hot water from another source ?
You'll have better direct heat straight off boiler but when dies down you be stuffed but maybe ways to go without losing rhi ???

 

[Happiness]

Is there ways possibily to use for space heating only in house and cottages and use other method for hot water maybe as you will still be in scheme and have hot water from another source ?
You'll have better direct heat straight off boiler but when dies down you be stuffed but maybe ways to go without losing rhi ???

The problem here is that the installer has to correct the system as per NAPITS report. NAPIT not interested in financial loss of consumer, just that it is technically correct.

 

[akaPABLO01]

what is the kWth of heat and hot water demand to each property,

Should be on heat loss calcs or epc?

 

[Happiness]

what is the kWth of heat and hot water demand to each property,

Should be on heat loss calcs or epc?

 Main Dwelling – Space Heating 24.56kW – Hot Water 3.0kW – Total 27.56kW 
Cottage 1 / cottage2 Conversion – Space Heating 21.74kW – Hot Water 3.0kW – Total 24.74kW
Total allowance 52.30kW

 

[Still Farming]

The problem here is that the installer has to correct the system as per NAPITS report. NAPIT not interested in financial loss of consumer, just that it is technically correct.

Well it's up to you.
What can or can't you do with Ofgem approval ?
New boiler be rhi approved won't it ?
Approved schematic don't show all details anyhow so !!!

 

[akaPABLO01]

 Main Dwelling – Space Heating 24.56kW – Hot Water 3.0kW – Total 27.56kW 
Cottage 1 / cottage2 Conversion – Space Heating 21.74kW – Hot Water 3.0kW – Total 24.74kW
Total allowance 52.30kW

so all 3 properties are the same size with same room sizes?

Use this website to retrieve the epc if you have them and check, should be on page 3 at the bottom

https://www.epcregister.com/reportSearchAddressByPostcode.html