France to link food prices to farmers’ cost of production!!!

Dave645 said:

While in an ideal world I would agree, we don't live in that, nearly all farmers in Europe and the USA get sub in one form or another, world markets are excesses being dumped, because farming is poorly managed, I say poorly it's more maintained in a state of over supply.

I would ask you to do some basic maths and research, for the uk farmers.
A few facts in the uk we farm around 17.2 million HA of land about 36% is arable the rest grass or ruff grazing.
The average price of land is £8900/ acre which is down 10% from last year, more info can be found hear.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_the_United_Kingdom
Do some maths like I said what return on investment do farmers get,
Add the value of their holdings don't forget machinery, buildings, live stock, and crops. now you know what they have invested now divide total income by the number of employed people in farmer work out the % return on investment......and average wage.

Farming is not an investable industry it's not actualy a business that even remotely stands up as one and this is Euro wide and nearly world wide, food is just too cheap, for it to be remotely subs free and sustainable, I wish it was in the uk but it's not.

When you see that no new farms can be started because the numbers don't allow it by that I mean if I had the money to buy my farm it would earn me more just in the bank earning minimal interest. Than it actual earns me.
You then see why keeping the ones we have going is so important.
Once we stop there will be little that could restart the industry in the uk.

Click to expand...

Dave645 said:

While in an ideal world I would agree, we don't live in that, nearly all farmers in Europe and the USA get sub in one form or another, world markets are excesses being dumped, because farming is poorly managed, I say poorly it's more maintained in a state of over supply.

I would ask you to do some basic maths and research, for the uk farmers.
A few facts in the uk we farm around 17.2 million HA of land about 36% is arable the rest grass or ruff grazing.
The average price of land is £8900/ acre which is down 10% from last year, more info can be found hear.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_the_United_Kingdom
Do some maths like I said what return on investment do farmers get,
Add the value of their holdings don't forget machinery, buildings, live stock, and crops. now you know what they have invested now divide total income by the number of employed people in farmer work out the % return on investment......and average wage.

Farming is not an investable industry it's not actualy a business that even remotely stands up as one and this is Euro wide and nearly world wide, food is just too cheap, for it to be remotely subs free and sustainable, I wish it was in the uk but it's not.

When you see that no new farms can be started because the numbers don't allow it by that I mean if I had the money to buy my farm it would earn me more just in the bank earning minimal interest. Than it actual earns me.
You then see why keeping the ones we have going is so important.
Once we stop there will be little that could restart the industry in the uk.

Click to expand...

Bossfarmer said:

he won the lotto? chickens?

Click to expand...

unlacedgecko said:

You're confusing land ownership with farming.

One is an investment and the other is a trading business. @Clive has covered this many times. If the only route into farming is buying land at £9k an acre then I may as well give up now...

Fortunately it's not and I remain resolutely optimistic.

Click to expand...

Bossfarmer said:

he won the lotto? chickens?

Click to expand...

Dave645 said:

While in an ideal world I would agree, we don't live in that, nearly all farmers in Europe and the USA get sub in one form or another, world markets are excesses being dumped, because farming is poorly managed, I say poorly it's more maintained in a state of over supply.

I would ask you to do some basic maths and research, for the uk farmers.
A few facts in the uk we farm around 17.2 million HA of land about 36% is arable the rest grass or ruff grazing.
The average price of land is £8900/ acre which is down 10% from last year, more info can be found hear.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_the_United_Kingdom
Do some maths like I said what return on investment do farmers get,
Add the value of their holdings don't forget machinery, buildings, live stock, and crops. now you know what they have invested now divide total income by the number of employed people in farmer work out the % return on investment......and average wage.

Farming is not an investable industry it's not actualy a business that even remotely stands up as one and this is Euro wide and nearly world wide, food is just too cheap, for it to be remotely subs free and sustainable, I wish it was in the uk but it's not.

When you see that no new farms can be started because the numbers don't allow it by that I mean if I had the money to buy my farm it would earn me more just in the bank earning minimal interest. Than it actual earns me.
You then see why keeping the ones we have going is so important.
Once we stop there will be little that could restart the industry in the uk.

Click to expand...

unlacedgecko said:

You're confusing land ownership with farming.

One is an investment and the other is a trading business. @Clive has covered this many times. If the only route into farming is buying land at £9k an acre then I may as well give up now...

Fortunately it's not and I remain resolutely optimistic.

Click to expand...

Dave645 said:

Your missing the point someone does own the land, and they have to derive a return from it, and actual farmer farming the land on small farms is only earning on average 30% of their income from farming the rest is sub. The bigger the farmer the better it gets so it gets nearer 50:50 split profit to sub. But if he is an actual farmer owner of which their are lots, his return on his money for farming is tiny we are talking in the points of a % where normal businesses are talking 5-10% return or better.

Click to expand...

Dave645 said:

Your missing the point someone does own the land, and they have to derive a return from it, and actual farmer farming the land on small farms is only earning on average 30% of their income from farming the rest is sub. The bigger the farmer the better it gets so it gets nearer 50:50 split profit to sub. But if he is an actual farmer owner of which their are lots, his return on his money for farming is tiny we are talking in the points of a % where normal businesses are talking 5-10% return or better.

Click to expand...

brigadoon said:

I have a neighbour who has just spent 1.5 million expanding. Try telling him he is not in an investable business.

For sure most countries support agriculture and I expect the UK will continue to do so in one form or another.

Trying to justify such support on the basis that food production is essential to the UK is, however, futile. Food is a strategic resource presently in plentiful supply. That can change - and so can the support stance.

Click to expand...

Dave645 said:

And a big lump of that is from sub, or outside investment or diversity, the question you should ask is would he have done it without sub supporting him.
My point is if the food industry barely stands up as a business your relying on farmers grit to carry on, with sub, take one away the industry fails. And once it does where does the money come from to restart it.

if all the sheep farmers quit under price pressure from NewZealand and all those 31 million sheep go to be slaughtered which they will no money no sheep sure a few will be kept by a few as pets but the 99% will go, how do you restart production 10 years later if their is a shortage in the world, you cannnot breed from what your eating to expand your flock you have to not sell them so you can breed from them. It would take years to rebuild to current levels. That not including rebuilding the saluter house supply stores for farming equipment, rebuild and fencing inferstructure, the list goes on including farmers to look after them.

I don't think you even attempted to do the math if every farmer in the country could pull there money out of farming overnight buy houses or invested there money with even a close to normal return. they would see a bigger return on their money than farming with sub, and no work.

It's ok saying farming should not be subsidised and why are they a special case. if you turn a blind eye to what they do and risk every year on the thin margins they do it on.

Will you swop places with me you buy me out, of my family farm and you do my job, and I will do yours. Write me cheque from 4 million and you work for, (predicted income) minus 10k or +20k or +40k a year(don't forget in good years you need to invest in your inferstructure). I cannot garentee your income.
And income will drop by 50% if subs go. Welcome to no income garrenteed work, as a farmer. Because the 4million pound debt would normally be factored into any business if any other business had millions of pounds of money invested and cannot factor it in as a debt for what it owes them if invested in just a normal bank account instead of tied up not making them anything. They would soon pull the plug.
Farming is under paid work and always will be. The point is your not going to find new mugs to do it if subs go, and you push us to the wall.
Just because you think we are not a special case, we are that special we should all be locked up for even doing it in the first place. For the ungrateful masses.

Click to expand...

kiwi pom said:

What,s a normal business? Many do not make any money at all the difference is if they're not profitable they go out of business. If you're a landowner and can't farm profitably you get to stay in business because of the sub or the fact you own the land means you can sell it or rent it out and still make money, where as "normal businesses" are still bankrupt.

If food production is such an important matter of national security maybe the government should take back all food producing land so they can control exactly what's produced if there's ever a huge shortage.

Click to expand...

unlacedgecko said:

If it's so God awful, and you make such little money, why are you doing it? Why not cash in that asset of £4mil and enjoy a life of luxury?

Click to expand...

Dave645 said:

I assume you don't want to take me or anyone's else up on swopping jobs.....?
What would happen if every farmer decided at the same time to get out?
What if you like your job and the money is actualy less important to you than your way of life?as long as you can live on what your earning.
What if it's the thing your good at?
What if it's the only thing your trained to do?
What if it's been your job for 40 years?
Would you like it if someone comes along and says you don't deserve a living in your job your now only going to pay you half what you were just scraping by on, bespite you investing your hart and sole in it, as have your last 10 generations of your family, just because people don't want to pay what food actualy costs to produce in this country, they want fancy cars and nice holidays but not for you, we have decided we will buy cheaper from abroad and you now out of work. All your assets are now worth nothing because who wants farm land, no one in this country can make it pay.

The world wide farming industry is very under paid, and uk farming is offering a very good deal to consumer our prices are under what any normal business would supply at, you just cannot see it. And all you can say is you deserve less.

Click to expand...

Dave645 said:

And a big lump of that is from sub, or outside investment or diversity, the question you should ask is would he have done it without sub supporting him.

I am pretty sure that little or none of it is from sub

My point is if the food industry barely stands up as a business your relying on farmers grit to carry on, with sub, take one away the industry fails. And once it does where does the money come from to restart it.

There is no need whatever to restart it, it is self evident that there is a market for agricultural produce.

if all the sheep farmers quit under price pressure from NewZealand and all those 31 million sheep go to be slaughtered which they will no money no sheep sure a few will be kept by a few as pets but the 99% will go, how do you restart production 10 years later if their is a shortage in the world, you cannnot breed from what your eating to expand your flock you have to not sell them so you can breed from them. It would take years to rebuild to current levels. That not including rebuilding the saluter house supply stores for farming equipment, rebuild and fencing inferstructure, the list goes on including farmers to look after them.

If production = 99%% of demand we have a selllers market - if it -=101% we have a glut

I don't think you even attempted to do the math if every farmer in the country could pull there money out of farming overnight buy houses or invested there money with even a close to normal return. they would see a bigger return on their money than farming with sub, and no work.

Sorry but now you are being silly - if every farmer tried to pull thier money out then the business case for farming would be very clear

It's ok saying farming should not be subsidised and why are they a special case. if you turn a blind eye to what they do and risk every year on the thin margins they do it on.

They risk no more than any other business

Will you swop places with me you buy me out, of my family farm and you do my job, and I will do yours. Write me cheque from 4 million and you work for, (predicted income) minus 10k or +20k or +40k a year(don't forget in good years you need to invest in your inferstructure). I cannot garentee your income.

The last time I had a reasonably guaranteed income was in 2004 - that was in US dollars and had been for the last 10 years.

And income will drop by 50% if subs go. Welcome to no income garrenteed work, as a farmer. Because the 4million pound debt would normally be factored into any business if any other business had millions of pounds of money invested and cannot factor it in as a debt for what it owes them if invested in just a normal bank account instead of tied up not making them anything. They would soon pull the plug.

If income will drop 50% in the event of subs going then that kind of negates the argument that subs provide cheap food does it not?

Farming is under paid work and always will be. The point is your not going to find new mugs to do it if subs go, and you push us to the wall.
Just because you think we are not a special case, we are that special we should all be locked up for even doing it in the first place. For the ungrateful masses.

Click to expand...