France to link food prices to farmers’ cost of production!!!

[unlacedgecko]

yes there was a while back i even quoted it on here around the brexit time i believe it was about 75% in favour of farmers getting continued support

Got a link?

 

[Bossfarmer]

All major supermarkets have deliveries every 24hrs. If the UK haulage industry stopped moving for 72hrs there would be widespread rioting and looting.

Truckers subsidy? Ability to run an HGV on red diesel? Payment to haulage companies for every unit they have on the road? Subsidy for haulage companies which protect the environment by running their trucks at 10mph below the speed limit?

why would it stop moving? this would be more of a threat if we imported the food look at the miles it would have to travel

 

[unlacedgecko]

why would it stop moving? this would be more of a threat if we imported the food look at the miles it would have to travel

Why would farmers stop producing if subs went? I'm demonstrating that it could be argued the haulage industry is more important to U.K. food security than UK agriculture. So why isn't the haulage industry subsidised? And why is agriculture?

 

[Bossfarmer]

Why would farmers stop producing if subs went? I'm demonstrating that it could be argued the haulage industry is more important to U.K. food security than UK agriculture. So why isn't the haulage industry subsidised? And why is agriculture?

because it would be uneconomical in most areas of the UK to do so, the haulage industry works on contracts and has a built in margin i know many, they also dont have to wait 10 months of the year to see a return nor do they protect our country from expensive food imports in times of shortage

 

[unlacedgecko]

because it would be uneconomical in most areas of the UK to do so, the haulage industry works on contracts and has a built in margin i know many, they also dont have to wait 10 months of the year to see a return nor do they protect our country from expensive food imports in times of shortage

A lot of the haulage industry works on contracts, but many don't. Some contracts have a fuel escelator, but many don't.

Payment terms vary from contract to contract. Some can be 90 days from end of month, so that's up to 120 days. But insurance must be paid in advance, fuel at point of purchase (or 30 days max) and drivers monthly.

The haulage industry transports your goods to market. Without them you wouldn't sell anything. They also protect the country from expensive crop failures in UK ag.

Are COP contracts not available for grain? I'm sure you can forward sell your grain, which is in effect a contract right?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

A lot of the haulage industry works on contracts, but many don't. Some contracts have a fuel escelator, but many don't.

Payment terms vary from contract to contract. Some can be 90 days from end of month, so that's up to 120 days. But insurance must be paid in advance, fuel at point of purchase (or 30 days max) and drivers monthly.

The haulage industry transports your goods to market. Without them you wouldn't sell anything. They also protect the country from expensive crop failures in UK ag.

Yes, but
Farmers are protecting the UK consumer from EXPENSIVE imports

They were cheap and nasty yesterday
Now, they're expensive.

Never mind the details though.

 

[digger64]

that doesn't even make sense . . .

State pays £75 / acre to control influence the management of the land , gives a few parameters he manages it so in effect he is a civil servant

 

[Bossfarmer]

A lot of the haulage industry works on contracts, but many don't. Some contracts have a fuel escelator, but many don't.

Payment terms vary from contract to contract. Some can be 90 days from end of month, so that's up to 120 days. But insurance must be paid in advance, fuel at point of purchase (or 30 days max) and drivers monthly.

The haulage industry transports your goods to market. Without them you wouldn't sell anything. They also protect the country from expensive crop failures in UK ag.

Are COP contracts not available for grain? I'm sure you can forward sell your grain, which is in effect a contract right?

as a sector haulage has never had or needed subsidy nor are they competing with other countries who sub haulage the way farmers are so its a strange comparison, the farmers sub is used to pay haulage anyway??

 

[Dave645]

But you are manageing your business for your tenant -the state

Which I should point out subs come with strings.
1. You deliver what the govermant wants, environmental good practice.
For that you get sub as compensation from moving from your primary business.
2. You must be a farmer farming the land.
So the govermant want us to do something for them we provide the service while they require we remain active farmer getting more than half our income from farming ( limited or no diversification)
So we are classed as service industry and a private business, that farms.
That's the govermants current position.

The reality is if the govermant did nationaize farming I would be far better off. Most likely a wage rise to start then a good pension and paid holidays, I don't have to worry what I produce I just have to turn up and do the job.
Will this reduce the tax payers burden of support for farming, not sure.
Efficiency will drop, inferstructure cost will rise, over supply will fall,
If you take the 400-450 billion it would take to buy us all out, put it at 1% interest as national debt, the debt interest repayments would be 4 billion can they make that up in savings made buy central control and scale I am not sure, I do know they will be paying me far more actualy to do less but their would be less of us, I say me as I am younger than the national average, so would more than likely stay in the industry, the past mandatory retirement age farmers would be used for job cuts.
So after they pay the staff and pay the debt, it's unlikly to reduce food prices to true world prices, I would not be surprised if it actual increased the food cost or tax cost of uk farming, but with full control they can control food supply, creating rises in food costs, but this means increased prices to the consumer not lower, in the end I assume your goal is to reduce food and tax costs from the consumer. A goal I just don't think is possible from our countries farms, it's just the very basic think of cost of living what the machinery costs as well as labour, we will never get as low as a country where workers work for £3 a day.

 

[Dave645]

I'm not jumping at the chance because I don't have £4mil. Send me all the relevant details and paperwork for your family farm. I will perform due diligence on it. If I think it is a workable solution, I will offer to pay you your £4mil in monthly instalments over a 30year term, provided that the farm is on a walk in walk out basis (e.g. All plant and crops are included).

I do think that UK Ag is a liveable industry, that's why 2 years ago I started my livestock contracting business.

There's no envy/jealousy from me. I am grateful that I have inherited no land, as it means I will have to be more imaginative and hard working to buy my own land. But till that time I will make do with the seasonal lets that I can access at the moment. I will just have to structure my business in a way which takes maximum advantage of the land that I can access, when I can access it.

And BTW I don't have a job. I've been self employed since 2012. But even if I was in a PAYE employed position, my income could be stopped at any time by someone telling me "you're fired". I am sure many of the employees of Lehman Brothers or BHS thought they had guaranteed incomes. And they did, until they didn't.

That's my point even if it was a bargain at £4million, if you have to borrow it, it doesn't stack up, and any real business would have to make it stack up. Even at 2% interest your just working for nothing, even with sub. 80k intrest plus repayment of around 130k per year makes farming impossible. With that over you.

My point is farming is not just a business, so when it's said what makes you special as farmers now you know, we are all mad......and your lucky to have us.
A countries food supply is nothing to gamble with.
You have got to be 100% sure of the outcome of any major change to farming.
And please don't forget, nearly everyone in the EU is in the same boat, very dependant on subs in what ever form they come. If the EU followed the uk out of subs I am not sure what would happen.
People have got to get over farmers owning there land so they don't deserve help. If it was a country of state owned farms, we would not here a peep, when they get a pay rise just to keep up with inflation never mind just living some years.

 

[Bossfarmer]

That's my point even if it was a bargain at £4million, if you have to borrow it, it doesn't stack up, and any real business would have to make it stack up. Even at 2% interest your just working for nothing, even with sub. 80k intrest plus repayment of around 130k per year makes farming impossible. With that over you.

My point is farming is not just a business, so when it's said what makes you special as farmers now you know, we are all mad......and your lucky to have us.
A countries food supply is nothing to gamble with.
You have got to be 100% sure of the outcome of any major change to farming.
And please don't forget, nearly everyone in the EU is in the same boat, very dependant on subs in what ever form they come. If the EU followed the uk out of subs I am not sure what would happen.
People have got to get over farmers owning there land so they don't deserve help. If it was a country of state owned farms, we would not here a peep, when they get a pay rise just to keep up with inflation never mind just living some years.

Excellent post!!

 

[digger64]

Which I should point out subs come with strings.
1. You deliver what the govermant wants, environmental good practsucessful aor that you get sub as compensation from moving from your primary business.
2. You must be a farmer farming the land.
So the govermant want us to do something for them we provide the service while they require we remain active farmer getting more than half our income from farming ( limited or no diversification)
So we are classed as service industry and a private business, that farms.
That's the govermants current position.

The reality is if the govermant did nationaize farming I would be far better off. Most likely a wage rise to start then a good pension and paid holidays, I don't have to worry what I produce I just have to turn up and do the job.
Will this reduce the tax payers burden of support for farming, not sure.
Efficiency will drop, inferstructure cost will rise, over supply will fall,
If you take the 400-450 billion it would take to buy us all out, put it at 1% interest as national debt, the debt interest repayments would be 4 billion can they make that up in savings made buy central control and scale I am not sure, I do know they will be paying me far more actualy to do less but their would be less of us, I say me as I am younger than the national average, so would more than likely stay in the industry, the past mandatory retirement age farmers would be used for job cuts.
So after they pay the staff and pay the debt, it's unlikly to reduce food prices to true world prices, I would not be surprised if it actual increased the food cost or tax cost of uk farming, but with full control they can control food supply, creating rises in food costs, but this means increased prices to the consumer not lower, in the end I assume your goal is to reduce food and tax costs from the consumer. A goal I just don't think is possible from our countries farms, it's just the very basic think of cost of living what the machinery costs as well as labour, we will never get as low as a country where workers work for £3 a day.

Land value in the uk has very little to with farming generally collateral yes , real business farmers would charge themselves a rent figure for budgets and benchmarking , your sucess as a farm manager would be measured as return on tenants capital , uk farming should compete very easily given its location and potential customer base , it falls down on its overheads why ? The fact that the land cannot be bought from its own output in someone's working life would suggest that something business wise is out of balance to the outsider sooner or later this will be noticed by the general public , will they act ? and do they care ?

 

[unlacedgecko]

That's my point even if it was a bargain at £4million, if you have to borrow it, it doesn't stack up, and any real business would have to make it stack up. Even at 2% interest your just working for nothing, even with sub. 80k intrest plus repayment of around 130k per year makes farming impossible. With that over you.

My point is farming is not just a business, so when it's said what makes you special as farmers now you know, we are all mad......and your lucky to have us.
A countries food supply is nothing to gamble with.
You have got to be 100% sure of the outcome of any major change to farming.
And please don't forget, nearly everyone in the EU is in the same boat, very dependant on subs in what ever form they come. If the EU followed the uk out of subs I am not sure what would happen.
People have got to get over farmers owning there land so they don't deserve help. If it was a country of state owned farms, we would not here a peep, when they get a pay rise just to keep up with inflation never mind just living some years.

So the deal is off then?

How large is your farm and where is it?

 

[unlacedgecko]

as a sector haulage has never had or needed subsidy nor are they competing with other countries who sub haulage the way farmers are so its a strange comparison, the farmers sub is used to pay haulage anyway??

Google "cabotage".

Have you not noticed all the foreign lorries on the roads? In England there are no shortage of Eastern European hauliers. They come over the channel with belly tanks on, which they have filled with cheap diesel on the continent.

I spoke with a driver last week who was Russian. He was working 5 or 6 days a week (60hrs work, but more time in a lorry as rest and POA are not counted as "work"). He was on £300 a week. He told me this was an excellent wage for his country.

Foreign competition are a major problem for small and medium UK hauliers based just on the above. And that's without discussing the fact they don't pay UK road tax, their lorries don't have to be maintained to the same standard, often their drivers aren't as well trained and the lorries are cheaper to buy in the first place!

See any comparison with farming yet?

 

[deleted user 837354]

Google "cabotage".

Have you not noticed all the foreign lorries on the roads? In England there are no shortage of Eastern European hauliers. They come over the channel with belly tanks on, which they have filled with cheap diesel on the continent.

I spoke with a driver last week who was Russian. He was working 5 or 6 days a week (60hrs work, but more time in a lorry as rest and POA are not counted as "work"). He was on £300 a week. He told me this was an excellent wage for his country.

Foreign competition are a major problem for small and medium UK hauliers based just on the above. And that's without discussing the fact they don't pay UK road tax, their lorries don't have to be maintained to the same standard, often their drivers aren't as well trained and the lorries are cheaper to buy in the first place!

See any comparison with farming yet?

Cheap to employ foreign hauliers, particularly when they ignore rules about drivers hours and tachos. In the press a few weeks ago was a Bulgarian HGV driver who had driven for 60 hours straight without stopping.

DVSA getting to grips with them now, used to be a £300 on the spot fine- no problem for the companies involved if they get caught, just pay up. Now they seize the vehicle....

 

[unlacedgecko]

Cheap to employ foreign hauliers, particularly when they ignore rules about drivers hours and tachos. In the press a few weeks ago was a Bulgarian HGV driver who had driven for 60 hours straight without stopping.

DVSA getting to grips with them now, used to be a £300 on the spot fine- no problem for the companies involved if they get caught, just pay up. Now they seize the vehicle....

I know two Polish drivers currently serving custodial sentences for infringing tacho hours, 6 and 7 months each.

When I read some of the harvest hours mentioned on here, I'm sure it is only a matter of time until all tractors have tachos.

 

[Bossfarmer]

Google "cabotage".

Have you not noticed all the foreign lorries on the roads? In England there are no shortage of Eastern European hauliers. They come over the channel with belly tanks on, which they have filled with cheap diesel on the continent.

I spoke with a driver last week who was Russian. He was working 5 or 6 days a week (60hrs work, but more time in a lorry as rest and POA are not counted as "work"). He was on £300 a week. He told me this was an excellent wage for his country.

Foreign competition are a major problem for small and medium UK hauliers based just on the above. And that's without discussing the fact they don't pay UK road tax, their lorries don't have to be maintained to the same standard, often their drivers aren't as well trained and the lorries are cheaper to buy in the first place!

See any comparison with farming yet?

no these guys are breaking the law our european and worldwide competitors are recieving subsidy therefore our own government should support us too

 

[Doc]

@unlacedgecko are you implying @Farmer Roy Roy, @Kiwi Pete Pete ,@kiwi pom aren't well trained and have duff gear ?

 

[unlacedgecko]

no these guys are breaking the law our european and worldwide competitors are recieving subsidy therefore our own government should support us too

Those hauliers I mention in the quoted post are doing nothing illegal.

 

[unlacedgecko]

@unlacedgecko are you implying @Farmer Roy Roy, @Kiwi Pete Pete ,@kiwi pom aren't well trained and have duff gear ?

I wasn't aware any of the above operated trucks in the UK?

I have 3 main points;

1) UK haulage industry is just as vital to feeding the nation and the national economy as UK farmers, if not more so.

2) UK based hauliers face stiff competition from hauliers based in Europe. These European hauliers can have much lower costs (both fixed and variable) yet still legally operate in the UK, within certain rules. They are in effect exporting their haulage services. They can easily undercut UK based hauliers.

3) Despite the above the UK haulage industry receives no direct subsidy. In light of this, what makes farmers so special that they should receive subsidy?