Mastitis and High Cell count bolus

Farmer Fin · Nov 14, 2019

the hoof man said:
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.jafc.9b04378#

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-new...c-udder-care-solution-to-irish-dairy-farmers/

http://animalhealth.allimax.nl/?page_id=122&lang=en

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10594976

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/bb5b/df08b6ce14e21b72877a5716fd3264e37632.pdf

http://www.jbc.org/content/291/22/11477.full

Thanks.

These are either lab based,
relating to mice or marketing material. No peer reviewed evidence backing up your claims about its effect in a cow udder.

When I did a quick search I found a masters paper looking at cows treated with these boluses and high cell counts. It found no difference between them and a placebo.

Farmer Fin · Nov 14, 2019

Allicin as a Treatment for Chronic Subclinical Mastitis in Dairy Cows

Read this

the hoof man · Nov 14, 2019

They will be lab based, Allicin is a feed supplement and not a medicine and there fore I believe lab based results can be used without making a medicinal claim.

I guess that a pharmaceutical company will never invest millions of pounds to make Allicin a licenced product?

I was as sceptical as you are when I was introduced to the product and its potential to do good and this is why I started collating real data from my farms across the country, my customers and not a manufacturers data.

I have said that this is not the magic bullet but a part of the jigsaw puzzle, there are many contributing factors involved but if we dismiss everything out of hand and ignore the findings of other people/dairy farmers that have been in the same boat as you then we will lose the fight against antibiotic resistance - FACT!!

At least with this idea you can do your own small trial, no buying a tonne of something to add to the TMR and giving to all the cows, you can get a very visual and personal result - Just use your milk records from before and after treatment. Simple and then you chose to use again or you don't but we are currently running at a re order rate of 82% which tells me that the vast majority have seen enough of a benefit to use them as part of their antibiotic reduction plan.

Farmer Fin · Nov 14, 2019

the hoof man said:
They will be lab based, Allicin is a feed supplement and not a medicine and there fore I believe lab based results can be used without making a medicinal claim.

I guess that a pharmaceutical company will never invest millions of pounds to make Allicin a licenced product?

I was as sceptical as you are when I was introduced to the product and its potential to do good and this is why I started collating real data from my farms across the country, my customers and not a manufacturers data.

I have said that this is not the magic bullet but a part of the jigsaw puzzle, there are many contributing factors involved but if we dismiss everything out of hand and ignore the findings of other people/dairy farmers that have been in the same boat as you then we will lose the fight against antibiotic resistance - FACT!!

At least with this idea you can do your own small trial, no buying a tonne of something to add to the TMR and giving to all the cows, you can get a very visual and personal result - Just use your milk records from before and after treatment. Simple and then you chose to use again or you don't but we are currently running at a re order rate of 82% which tells me that the vast majority have seen enough of a benefit to use them as part of their antibiotic reduction plan.

You’re right as a feed supplement you don’t have to prove anything and there is the problem.

Pharma companies will invest in products they can prove and trust me there is big investment in non antibiotic solutions at the moment. But I’m sure this will not be it!

As you correctly said mastitis control has lots of elements, but flogging crap to farmers isn’t one of them.

the hoof man · Nov 14, 2019

Ha ha ha... By definition then, anyone that has bought them, used them and found a benefit is an idiot.

What have you found to be beneficial in this area that you would be able to share with the group?

epfarms · Nov 14, 2019

Farmer Fin said:
Thanks.

These are either lab based,
relating to mice or marketing material. No peer reviewed evidence backing up your claims about its effect in a cow udder.

When I did a quick search I found a masters paper looking at cows treated with these boluses and high cell counts. It found no difference between them and a placebo.

I'm with you here Fin, I found no genuine evidence to support the use.
Anything that works with dairy cows (and a lot that doesn't) gets put through blinded field trail studies pretty quickly, ends up in peer reviewed journals and subsequently sells itself rather than merchants pushing their magic beans on to people that feel like they'll try anything to help a situation they're not getting on top of. Infected cows SCC's vary hugely between recordings/days and many will cure on their own any way.. you can see how many do this on Herd Companion or whatever recording company you use.
If this has been around and working for so long, do you not think it'd be all over farming press/vets/large pharmaceuticals radars!?

Every time you're tempted to stick one of these in a cow, instead put that money in to a jar and after a while pay for some decent mastitis consultancy - this actually works!!

Regards,
A farmer sick of people trying to peddle s**t

Farmer Fin · Nov 14, 2019

the hoof man said:
Ha ha ha... By definition then, anyone that has bought them, used them and found a benefit is an idiot.

What have you found to be beneficial in this area that you would be able to share with the group?

No they are just being hood winked by gifted sales people.

EP sums it up beautifully. Prevention is key. Dependent on pathogen and cow some respond to lactation treatment with antibiotics, some during the dry period and some need a career change.

Spend your money on decent mastitis prevention and get qualified advice.

the hoof man · Nov 14, 2019

Part of the jigsaw puzzle lads as I said at the start....

The future of antibiotic resistance is in your hands.

Good luck in the future eh.

the hoof man · Nov 14, 2019

Sadly plenty of qualified advice, yet still huge problems...

No quick fixes, no magic bullets which is how I presented this initially.

To be fair, it is easier to dismiss something than to try it for yourself isn't it?

letsmakemilk · Nov 14, 2019

the hoof man said:
Ha ha ha... By definition then, anyone that has bought them, used them and found a benefit is an idiot.

What have you found to be beneficial in this area that you would be able to share with the group?

Not idiots, just mislead by the idiot selling them and don't have the means to properly and accurately assess their efficacy.

Good management is usually beneficial enough to keep things well under control!!

epfarms · Nov 14, 2019

the hoof man said:
Part of the jigsaw puzzle lads as I said at the start....

The future of antibiotic resistance is in your hands.

Good luck in the future eh.

Good management, preventing mastitis, will lower the risk of antibiotic resistance, not increase it.

organicguy · Nov 14, 2019

epfarms said:
Good management, preventing mastitis, will lower the risk of antibiotic resistance, not increase it.

Regardless of whether these boluses work , allicin, the extract of garlic is bactericidal or bacteristatic. I know tinctures are used extensively in America. We also know that there are many chemicals out there within plants,some discovered,many more not, which are incredibly powerful. Disregard them at your peril.

Farmer Fin · Nov 14, 2019

the hoof man said:
Sadly plenty of qualified advice, yet still huge problems...

No quick fixes, no magic bullets which is how I presented this initially.

To be fair, it is easier to dismiss something than to try it for yourself isn't it?

You’re right plenty of qualified advice but it often doesn’t make it to the people with the biggest issues. The other issues is that sometimes it takes a big investment in time or money to actually fix a mastitis problem.

Farmer Fin · Nov 14, 2019

organicguy said:
Regardless of whether these boluses work , allicin, the extract of garlic is bactericidal or bacteristatic. I know tinctures are used extensively in America. We also know that there are many chemicals out there within plants,some discovered,many more not, which are incredibly powerful. Disregard them at your peril.

No one is disregarding the compound. My first post was asking for evidence that it works orally in the form of a bolus. I have still not seen a thing.

Any one who know a thing about ruminants knows that bacteria in the rumen tend to act on things first and thats where this bolus is going.

As for tinctures. Again show me the evidence. The Americans love JDS for evidence so let’s see what is in there?

the hoof man · Nov 14, 2019

Lads, you offer great sentiment but sadly if what you suggest actually happened then we would not be in the situation we are with antimicrobial resistance. Good management , preventing the problem obviously has not been happening or there would not be widespread resistance and a need for alternative therapies.

I am used to working with sceptics and then wanting/needing to prove what I say and that it what I have done with this product over the last 4 months. I too didn't fully believe what I was being told..

So I will share with you the last 5 results, these have come in over the last 10 days:

Farm 1) 5 cows total SCC Pre Treatment @ 16,452,100
Post treatment total @ 2,685,000

Farm 2) 5 cows total SCC Pre Treatment @ 9,918,100
Post treatment total @ 821,000

Farm 3) 4 cows total SCC Pre Treatment @ 8,772,000
Post treatment total @ 1,242,000

Farm 4) 5 cows total SCC Pre Treatment @ 11,413,000
Post treatment total @ 8,560,000

Farm 5) 5 cows total SCC Pre Treatment @ 15,995,000
Post treatment total @ 2,583,000

All because they listened and trusted an idiot....

Believe it our not, some people that advise/support there customers do it because they want to help and of course we don't do it for free.

It is wrong to tag all that of us that make a living as idiots with nothing to back it up with - There are some very lazy sales people and that is what they are, sales people and some of us put real effort in to prove and support what we do.

I'll leave it here, information and views shared - Try them or don't try them - Very simple.

the hoof man · Nov 14, 2019

Farmer Fin said:
You’re right plenty of qualified advice but it often doesn’t make it to the people with the biggest issues. The other issues is that sometimes it takes a big investment in time or money to actually fix a mastitis problem.

What have you done to show the biggest improvements in mastitis control?

Where do people with problems start, what do they do first?

Genuine question by the way.

Farmer Fin · Nov 14, 2019

the hoof man said:
Lads, you offer great sentiment but sadly if what you suggest actually happened then we would not be in the situation we are with antimicrobial resistance. Good management , preventing the problem obviously has not been happening or there would not be widespread resistance and a need for alternative therapies.

I am used to working with sceptics and then wanting/needing to prove what I say and that it what I have done with this product over the last 4 months. I too didn't fully believe what I was being told..

So I will share with you the last 5 results, these have come in over the last 10 days:

Farm 1) 5 cows total SCC Pre Treatment @ 16,452,100
Post treatment total @ 2,685,000

Farm 2) 5 cows total SCC Pre Treatment @ 9,918,100
Post treatment total @ 821,000

Farm 3) 4 cows total SCC Pre Treatment @ 8,772,000
Post treatment total @ 1,242,000

Farm 4) 5 cows total SCC Pre Treatment @ 11,413,000
Post treatment total @ 8,560,000

Farm 5) 5 cows total SCC Pre Treatment @ 15,995,000
Post treatment total @ 2,583,000

All because they listened and trusted an idiot....

Believe it our not, some people that advise/support there customers do it because they want to help and of course we don't do it for free.

It is wrong to tag all that of us that make a living as idiots with nothing to back it up with - There are some very lazy sales people and that is what they are, sales people and some of us put real effort in to prove and support what we do.

I'll leave it here, information and views shared - Try them or don't try them - Very simple.

Agreed we will leave it there and let farmers decide.

Your results above have no comparisons so aren’t worth anything.

Also your comments about widespread resistance of antibiotics and mastitis are far from the truth which makes me think your understanding is very limited at best.

Good luck with your enterprise.

Farmer Fin · Nov 14, 2019

the hoof man said:
What have you done to show the biggest improvements in mastitis control?

Where do people with problems start, what do they do first?

Genuine question by the way.

Dairy co mastitis control plan.

Gives a systematic approach that had been proven to work and data published in peer reviewed journals.

Starts with a farm audit and data interpretation. Falls down when farms have poor records or farmer is unwilling to acknowledge the recommendations. That’s a whole other debate about effecting changes in ag.

the hoof man · Nov 14, 2019

Farmer Fin said:
Dairy co mastitis control plan.

Gives a systematic approach that had been proven to work and data published in peer reviewed journals.

Starts with a farm audit and data interpretation. Falls down when farms have poor records or farmer is unwilling to acknowledge the recommendations. That’s a whole other debate about effecting changes in ag.

The question was, what have you done to show the biggest improvements? Simple question.

Farmer Fin · Nov 14, 2019

the hoof man said:
The question was, what have you done to show the biggest improvements? Simple question.

But not one of a simple answer. Implemented the plan on several farms which resulted in large reductions in new infection rates.

Everything from, shed design, parlour routine, heifer management, grazing management, mastitis treatments, staff education. The list is endless. As you said yourself is a massive puzzle with every farm having different challenges.

Mastitis and High Cell count bolus

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