Should we farm without N?

The Ruminant said:

Mycorrhizal fungae are defined as “fungae which grow in association with the roots of a plant in a symbiotic or mildly pathogenic relationship”.

Not sure honey fungus is mildly pathogenic and not sure if it grows in association with the roots or has a different mode of attack. In other words, is it a true mycorrhizal fungae? Not sure!

Your comment does raise the question of what’s good and bad in nature. From a human point of view, yes honey fungus is bad. But, if you’re a species of plant that likes sunlight and open spaces then honey fungus would be good, opening up the forest canopy and letting you thrive. The insects and small grazing mammals that need open spaces would also appreciate the work of the honey fungus too.

Good and bad is largely a human construct. Its superficially good or bad for us, but it may be the opposite within the natural environment as a whole. Farming in a natural way means trying to understand nature, work out why it’s behaving as it is and then farming accordingly. It’s not easy, and we have a lifetime (and arguably several generations) of conditioning that makes us want to kill and control nature.

@exmoor dave mentions ‘weed’ grasses in an earlier post. We’ve all seen them as weeds at some point. Now some of us are starting to see them as forage that grows in early spring, or stays green during a drought, or that withstands hard grazing etc etc. We may not want too many plants of that species, but as diversity in the sward they’re welcome for the job the do. Or we see them as an indicator that we’ve mismanaged our land in some way. Maybe we overgrazed, or we poached it in a wet autumn, or we’ve applied too much N.

There’s lots to be learnt from the book and I’d really recommend it. I May have said this before, but I think if we understand micorrhyzae, we understand how to farm regeneratively. All the ‘best soil practices’ that we have learnt so far are shown to help mycorrhizae, and the benefits mycorrhizae give, from glomalin to increasing the surface area of a plant’s roots a thousand-fold(!!), are invaluable to us as farmers.

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The Ruminant said:

Mycorrhizal fungae are defined as “fungae which grow in association with the roots of a plant in a symbiotic or mildly pathogenic relationship”.

Not sure honey fungus is mildly pathogenic and not sure if it grows in association with the roots or has a different mode of attack. In other words, is it a true mycorrhizal fungae? Not sure!

Your comment does raise the question of what’s good and bad in nature. From a human point of view, yes honey fungus is bad. But, if you’re a species of plant that likes sunlight and open spaces then honey fungus would be good, opening up the forest canopy and letting you thrive. The insects and small grazing mammals that need open spaces would also appreciate the work of the honey fungus too.

Good and bad is largely a human construct. Its superficially good or bad for us, but it may be the opposite within the natural environment as a whole. Farming in a natural way means trying to understand nature, work out why it’s behaving as it is and then farming accordingly. It’s not easy, and we have a lifetime (and arguably several generations) of conditioning that makes us want to kill and control nature.

@exmoor dave mentions ‘weed’ grasses in an earlier post. We’ve all seen them as weeds at some point. Now some of us are starting to see them as forage that grows in early spring, or stays green during a drought, or that withstands hard grazing etc etc. We may not want too many plants of that species, but as diversity in the sward they’re welcome for the job the do. Or we see them as an indicator that we’ve mismanaged our land in some way. Maybe we overgrazed, or we poached it in a wet autumn, or we’ve applied too much N.

There’s lots to be learnt from the book and I’d really recommend it. I May have said this before, but I think if we understand micorrhyzae, we understand how to farm regeneratively. All the ‘best soil practices’ that we have learnt so far are shown to help mycorrhizae, and the benefits mycorrhizae give, from glomalin to increasing the surface area of a plant’s roots a thousand-fold(!!), are invaluable to us as farmers.

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martian said:

Great post...I love the bit about good and bad being a human construct. It absolutely is, and it applies to bacteria, viuses, arthropods, nematodes as well as fungi and 'pests' in general. I always thought (probably wrongly) that honey fungus attacked roots that were damaged, either by ploughs, badgers or other diggers (JCBs), or overshading by other trees etc. Most pathogenic fungi are about the place waiting for their moment, quietly getting on with life or suspended animation, and when a weak plant hoves into view, then they perform their ecological function and remove it and recycle the nutrients for succeeding generations of plants. Healthy plants grown in healthy (mycorrhizal rich) soil don't get ill...

Which is why we spend so much on fungicides when we put so much N on our crops. The plant grows too quick and its defences are weak, the fungi can attack the cell walls and do so. We think we are the guys in the white hats keeping the bad guys at bay with our fungicides etc, but actually we are keeping diseased and unhealthy plants alive very expensively and the food we are producing isn't, as a result, really that good for us. So we have a world full of not particularly healthy humans who we keep alive with expensive medicines and a 'health' service which is really a disease controlling system whose costs spiral ever upwards. Strange way to carry on, but perhaps it can all be sorted by stopping artificial N and encouraging mycorrhizae?

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The Ruminant said:

Mycorrhizal fungae are defined as “fungae which grow in association with the roots of a plant in a symbiotic or mildly pathogenic relationship”.

Not sure honey fungus is mildly pathogenic and not sure if it grows in association with the roots or has a different mode of attack. In other words, is it a true mycorrhizal fungae? Not sure!

Your comment does raise the question of what’s good and bad in nature. From a human point of view, yes honey fungus is bad. But, if you’re a species of plant that likes sunlight and open spaces then honey fungus would be good, opening up the forest canopy and letting you thrive. The insects and small grazing mammals that need open spaces would also appreciate the work of the honey fungus too.

Good and bad is largely a human construct. Its superficially good or bad for us, but it may be the opposite within the natural environment as a whole. Farming in a natural way means trying to understand nature, work out why it’s behaving as it is and then farming accordingly. It’s not easy, and we have a lifetime (and arguably several generations) of conditioning that makes us want to kill and control nature.

@exmoor dave mentions ‘weed’ grasses in an earlier post. We’ve all seen them as weeds at some point. Now some of us are starting to see them as forage that grows in early spring, or stays green during a drought, or that withstands hard grazing etc etc. We may not want too many plants of that species, but as diversity in the sward they’re welcome for the job the do. Or we see them as an indicator that we’ve mismanaged our land in some way. Maybe we overgrazed, or we poached it in a wet autumn, or we’ve applied too much N.

There’s lots to be learnt from the book and I’d really recommend it. I may have said this before, but I think if we understand micorrhyzae, we understand how to farm regeneratively. All the ‘best soil practices’ that we have learnt so far are shown to help mycorrhizae, and the benefits mycorrhizae give, from glomalin to increasing the surface area of a plant’s roots a thousand-fold(!!), are invaluable to us as farmers.

Click to expand...

The Ruminant said:

Mycorrhizal fungae are defined as “fungae which grow in association with the roots of a plant in a symbiotic or mildly pathogenic relationship”.

Not sure honey fungus is mildly pathogenic and not sure if it grows in association with the roots or has a different mode of attack. In other words, is it a true mycorrhizal fungae? Not sure!

Your comment does raise the question of what’s good and bad in nature. From a human point of view, yes honey fungus is bad. But, if you’re a species of plant that likes sunlight and open spaces then honey fungus would be good, opening up the forest canopy and letting you thrive. The insects and small grazing mammals that need open spaces would also appreciate the work of the honey fungus too.

Good and bad is largely a human construct. Its superficially good or bad for us, but it may be the opposite within the natural environment as a whole. Farming in a natural way means trying to understand nature, work out why it’s behaving as it is and then farming accordingly. It’s not easy, and we have a lifetime (and arguably several generations) of conditioning that makes us want to kill and control nature.

@exmoor dave mentions ‘weed’ grasses in an earlier post. We’ve all seen them as weeds at some point. Now some of us are starting to see them as forage that grows in early spring, or stays green during a drought, or that withstands hard grazing etc etc. We may not want too many plants of that species, but as diversity in the sward they’re welcome for the job the do. Or we see them as an indicator that we’ve mismanaged our land in some way. Maybe we overgrazed, or we poached it in a wet autumn, or we’ve applied too much N.

There’s lots to be learnt from the book and I’d really recommend it. I may have said this before, but I think if we understand micorrhyzae, we understand how to farm regeneratively. All the ‘best soil practices’ that we have learnt so far are shown to help mycorrhizae, and the benefits mycorrhizae give, from glomalin to increasing the surface area of a plant’s roots a thousand-fold(!!), are invaluable to us as farmers.

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Rob Garrett said:

My limited brain capacity likes to keep things simple, hence good & bad or you take a crop off the soil, you need to add something back obviously?? N, P, K. A soil test tells you your pH is high so add lime, simple. Is that what you mean by the "human construct" bit? Your brain wanting to pigeon hole things, simplify the message?

Having grown 3t/acre ish of pea/barley with no bagged N, I now know what I put back doesn't have to be artificial N, but I still put back FYM with the plough, that kills the Mycorrhizal.

Maybe compost is the answer, apply to stubble & drill into it. What do you think?

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YELROM said:

Apply the FYM to the stubble and drill into it

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Rob Garrett said:

Now that's a bloody good idea, why didn't I think of that!

So maybe just a moderate blathering of good mature FYM, then combi p/harow drill. Mixes in top 2" where needed, not ploughed down 4". Guessing would need to be on top of pre/post emergence for weeds. Have you tried it?

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robs1 said:

We have been doing it for several years, it's a mix of horse muck mainly, tipped up in heaps then spread after harvest and drilled into. Works fine surprising how fast the worms take it in

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Rob Garrett said:

Result, thanks for that, will give it a half field trial this autumn with winter barley. Still like the idea of ploughing before spring pea/barley, peas a bit sensitive to compaction I think, unless @The Ruminant can convince me otherwise.

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Rob Garrett said:

Now that's a bloody good idea, why didn't I think of that!

So maybe just a moderate blathering of good mature FYM, then combi p/harow drill. Mixes in top 2" where needed, not ploughed down 4". Guessing would need to be on top of pre/post emergence for weeds. Have you tried it?

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Breakthru said:

Like a Heroin addict you will need to wean off slowly.
Personally I worked for an N producer many moons ago and always reckoned the trial results were set up specifically to use more than needed.
Look at the work done in the 70's by Cleanacres in the Cotswolds. Avalon at 6.3t/acre. Totally different timings.
Look at the work done in Germany in the 90's re OSR and again nutrition and timings the key. That resulted in 5t/ha 5 year averages.
I retired as an agronomist years ago but regard the use of late N in small doses as key. Urea also acts as a fungicide so it cuts those bills down too. Why feed OSR to create 2 metres of worthless straw and then spend money shortening it.
Feed the plant at the time when its forming the bit you sell not the bit you chop.

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Rob Garrett said:

But does the bit you chop (leaf at least) not make the bit you sell?

Any chance of having a butchers at the Cleanacre trials data you mentioned?

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puppet said:

It is great but not so good when you lose 160 cows from botulism. And the spores last in the soil for several years

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Rob Garrett said:

Elyann & (home saved) Canyon spring oats undersown with Octal linseed & Aber Dye white clover. No bagged N, no chem.
View attachment 895466View attachment 895467

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The Ruminant said:

I’d suggest listening to it, Will, in fact I was thinking of you and wondering what you’d make of it when I was listening. It’s fascinating stuff and straight from the researcher’s mouth

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The Ruminant said:

I think one of the problems with science is that scientists are human. If they’ve spent their life trying to prove that x action results in y outcome, they become entrenched in that position and refuse to consider they may have been wrong all along. So when someone comes along and says x action results in a+z they dig in and refute the other’s findings. It’s happened time and time again, through history.

I also part-believe the old saying that an expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less. Again, there is evidence that scientists can become so focused on their own extremely narrow field of study that they’re unable to step back and look at the big picture. The latter is often called “common sense” or “gut feel”.

My “gut feel” as a layman is that extra N will result in the burning up of OM. Why wouldn’t it? The soil is full of creatures who need a particular C:N ratio. There’s lots of C kicking round but the limiting factor is N. If we suddenly supply a vast excess of N, these soil-dwellers are going to feast, and multiply like mad, and feast again, much as I do when offered an eat-all-you-can banquet! (feasting, that is, not multiplying...!!)

I agree a round table discussion would be fascinating (Groundswell idea, @martian?) though it may end in fisticuffs

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