Should we farm without N?

[Rob Garrett]

Have you costed your ploughing per year? It might be that a fancy expensive drill or what contractors charge to use one for you could be cost effective?

Yes your right. I think Agcon charge £35/acre for their Mazuri strip drill, one pass, happy fungi, job done. Provided that I don't pay the idiot that drives my tractor then guessing I can match that with fuel, wearing parts, machine depreciation etc. But that misses the point of what forms my holistic context, the stuff that gets me out of bed in the morning, a small part of which is how I manage my cash, how can I make and keep as much of my products £ as possible, paying a contractor goes against that. I do use contractors, an agronomist and bagged N, but am slowly heading in another direction.

 

[Rob Garrett]

We started here 10 years ago with a W Wheat, W Wheat, W Barley, OSR rotation. I just got that peed off with getting screwed by the agronomist, screwed by the corn merchant, listening to all the "expert" advice (which always involved in spending my money), my cashflow was tits up (not a lot better now!) and everyone seemed to be making money out of me whilst I done all the work!

Hence the change of focus to doing stuff I can see, reading the soil/crops/stock, learning stuff that makes a difference but doesn't cost me money. Knowledge is the key to getting off the hamster wheel. Hope that don't sound too negative or up my own backside!

 

[Rob Garrett]

I think that might of been the issue!

Is that a weasel hitching a lift on the back of a woodpecker?

 

[jondear]

Is that a weasel hitching a lift on the back of a woodpecker?

Yep I saw it several years ago and thought that's pretty amazing!

 

[SilliamWhale]

I’d suggest listening to it, Will, in fact I was thinking of you and wondering what you’d make of it when I was listening. It’s fascinating stuff and straight from the researcher’s mouth

I had a listen today. Not finished the potassium bit.

I can see what the guy was saying and can see how it makes sense. Its definitely obvious you don't need artificial N for plant growth because all plants have spent millions of years growing without artificial N. His opinion that the soils that had more of the sugars excreting the natural N is quite understandable and they were limited by carbon also makes sense. I mean with legumes we know this happens in some way or another. I also would agree that N could burn N however I'm not sure thats the whole picture as. But the end result was the debate on soil OM not on yield levels.

It's also now well documented how the acid salt nature of nitrogen fertilisers damages soil biology in itself and directly leads to soil acidification.

A great point is made in the podcast that all of the yield trials (often sponsored by the fertiliser industry) compare using fertiliser to using no inputs rather than comparing using fertiliser to operating a holistic rotation with FYM and cover crops. They justify that by saying they need to "control for all other factors", a classic case of reductionist scientific method applied to a complex biological system. It's no wonder they "proved" the large response to fertiliser inputs.

Remember, the promotion of nitrogen fertiliser after ww2 was not an altruistic act to feed the growing population as it was claimed: it was the ammonia industry desperately looking for a new market after massive munition sales had stopped. If we want to "feed the world" then smallholders around the world produce MUCH more food per acre than broadacre farms ever do.

But it wasn't just WW2. We long had a N problem before that, we couldn't keep enough N produced especially after society changed from rural to industrial. I would concede if you could do a desk based study of inputs in/ inputs out on what the optimal diet would be for a human then we are probably vastly overusing N per calorie of food produced. But it doesn't appear that when we moved from a pastoral to industrial society that we had enough N.

 

[martian]

We've got a no fertiliser experiment going with a field of heritage wheat. It's very interesting (for all sorts of reasons). It's following on from John Letts's ongoing trial where he's been growing continuous wheat with no inputs at all for the last six years. He averages a shade over 1t/acre every year, which he'll point out is rather more wheat than most organic farms can produce off each field (3t/a every four or five years). He maintains that you don't want fertility as old wheats will fall over.
We've got a good under-storey of white clover and trefoil, which is growing upwards in the thinner parts, but it is keeping weeds down quite well. The wheat outgrows most weeds anyway. I think that this has great possibilities as a very low cost (had no inputs at all so far) system.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

We've got a no fertiliser experiment going with a field of heritage wheat. It's very interesting (for all sorts of reasons). It's following on from John Letts's ongoing trial where he's been growing continuous wheat with no inputs at all for the last six years. He averages a shade over 1t/acre every year, which he'll point out is rather more wheat than most organic farms can produce off each field (3t/a every four or five years). He maintains that you don't want fertility as old wheats will fall over.
We've got a good under-storey of white clover and trefoil, which is growing upwards in the thinner parts, but it is keeping weeds down quite well. The wheat outgrows most weeds anyway. I think that this has great possibilities as a very low cost (had no inputs at all so far) system.

I've been pondering whether that could work on an otherwise livestock farm. Pasture crop a traditional wheat or barley every 2 or 3 years with no inputs other than direct drilling the seed.

You may be answering it for me.

 

[Rob Garrett]

We've got a no fertiliser experiment going with a field of heritage wheat. It's very interesting (for all sorts of reasons). It's following on from John Letts's ongoing trial where he's been growing continuous wheat with no inputs at all for the last six years. He averages a shade over 1t/acre every year, which he'll point out is rather more wheat than most organic farms can produce off each field (3t/a every four or five years). He maintains that you don't want fertility as old wheats will fall over.
We've got a good under-storey of white clover and trefoil, which is growing upwards in the thinner parts, but it is keeping weeds down quite well. The wheat outgrows most weeds anyway. I think that this has great possibilities as a very low cost (had no inputs at all so far) system.

Elyann & (home saved) Canyon spring oats undersown with Octal linseed & Aber Dye white clover. No bagged N, no chem.

 

[Rob Garrett]

I've been pondering whether that could work on an otherwise livestock farm. Pasture crop a traditional wheat or barley every 2 or 3 years with no inputs other than direct drilling the seed.

You may be answering it for me.

Interesting article on Einkorn wheat (Spelt), grown as a break crop for French lavender production. No fert., deep rooting, drought tolerant, likes less fertile soils, possible artisan market. If anything is going to grow DD into pasture in a dry climate it's this stuff. What do you think?
https://thefurrow.co.uk/a-dream-team-in-provence/

Yes it is the John Deere magazine, but they have some interesting articles!

 

[martian]

Einkorn is interesting stuff to grow. It's not the same as spelt, it's a different species, but, like spelt, it needs dehulling before it can be milled. We had a field of it last year, next to our no-till variety trials at Groundswell last year. It has an amazing allelopathic effect on weeds. You can see to a line in the herbal ley we've planted this year where the einkorn stopped...there's lots of sterile brome where the wheat varieties were grown and none behind the einkorn. I think some organic no-tillers in the US use it as a cover crop, crimp it in the spring and grow a clean spring crop through the mulch.

Having said that, we planted some this spring, rather late (April) and it's a job to tell whether we're trying to grow wild oats or what. Got a lot of spring wild oats turning up all over the place, but that's another story.

 

[Rob Garrett]

Einkorn is interesting stuff to grow. It's not the same as spelt, it's a different species, but, like spelt, it needs dehulling before it can be milled. We had a field of it last year, next to our no-till variety trials at Groundswell last year. It has an amazing allelopathic effect on weeds. You can see to a line in the herbal ley we've planted this year where the einkorn stopped...there's lots of sterile brome where the wheat varieties were grown and none behind the einkorn. I think some organic no-tillers in the US use it as a cover crop, crimp it in the spring and grow a clean spring crop through the mulch.

Having said that, we planted some this spring, rather late (April) and it's a job to tell whether we're trying to grow wild oats or what. Got a lot of spring wild oats turning up all over the place, but that's another story.

Fascinating stuff that allelopathic effect on weeds, wonder if it would have the same effect on blackgrass as brome?

Guessing you DD the Einkorn into stubble, what sort of yield was there?

 

[Rob Garrett]

Grow your own N "Field Lab" trial, interesting stuff, not sure why you would want to spend money on an inter-row mower though!

Are living mulches the holy grail of arable farming? A farmer Q+A

innovativefarmers.org

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Grow your own N "Field Lab" trial, interesting stuff, not sure why you would want to spend money on an inter-row mower though!

Are living mulches the holy grail of arable farming? A farmer Q+A

innovativefarmers.org

Better ask @Clive to comment....

 

[Rob Garrett]

Better ask @Clive to comment....

Plenty of N here if you can find it, Trit. on the right is romping along, Pea/Barley on left not so, drilled @ same time, Fat Hen looks happy too, think it should be Sunnies between.

 

[martian]

Fascinating stuff that allelopathic effect on weeds, wonder if it would have the same effect on blackgrass as brome?

Guessing you DD the Einkorn into stubble, what sort of yield was there?

Yes, we direct drilled it into stubble. It took a while to get going, even in the spring, we thought it would be a wash out, then suddenly it took off. I keep meaning to look up what we gave it, fertiliser and spray wise. We'll be weighing it in the next day or two as it's off to someone who's just getting a dehuller and is mad for einkorn to mill...so I can't tell you exactly what it yielded. Selling it at £600/tonne though

 

[Rob Garrett]

Yes, we direct drilled it into stubble. It took a while to get going, even in the spring, we thought it would be a wash out, then suddenly it took off. I keep meaning to look up what we gave it, fertiliser and spray wise. We'll be weighing it in the next day or two as it's off to someone who's just getting a dehuller and is mad for einkorn to mill...so I can't tell you exactly what it yielded. Selling it at £600/tonne though

So ballpark £150/acre (low/no inputs) cost, 1 tonne/acre @ £600/t = £450/acre GP. Niche market, low volume, high margin agriculture. Sounds like a good product to have in a conventional rotation, plus the soil/weed benefit. Guessing you have got to enjoy the challenge of learning/trying something new, and a bit of risk though.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

So ballpark £150/acre (low/no inputs) cost, 1 tonne/acre @ £600/t = £450/acre GP. Niche market, low volume, high margin agriculture. Sounds like a good product to have in a conventional rotation, plus the soil/weed benefit. Guessing you have got to enjoy the challenge of learning/trying something new, and a bit of risk though.

Much like the early days of other niche crops though (Evening Primrose, Borage, even OSR), the price would soon drop if the volumes produced started to climb.

 

[The Ruminant]

Much like the early days of other niche crops though (Evening Primrose, Borage, even OSR), the price would soon drop if the volumes produced started to climb.

Especially if @martian keeps telling everyone he’s getting £600 per tonne for it.....
.....I might grow some myself. Anyone got a drill I can borrow?!!

 

[Rob Garrett]

Especially if @martian keeps telling everyone he’s getting £600 per tonne for it.....
.....I might grow some myself. Anyone got a drill I can borrow?!!

Seeds expensive, over £600/t & increasing with demand, & that's if you know anyone that's got any!

 

[Rob Garrett]

I’m reading “Mycorrhyzal Planet” and the author talks about Ramial wood which he says is the relatively new wood that grows each year. I can’t remember exactly why, but he was a firm believer that this stuff - ramial wood - was a wonder product as far as feeding the soil biome and mycorrhizae in particular. I wonder if this is because it is full of amino sugars. He talked about adding it to the mix when making compost too (I’ve just started my first mix )

View attachment 895195

Any learnings coming out of "Mycorrhizal Planet" reading? Guessing there are good & bad mycorrhizal, thinking honey fungus in trees?