Another BBC article Biased against farming.

[deleted user 837354]

You really dont understand it do you , everything you say is correct, but you don't seem to see how these situations and this trading environment/ treadmill is created by the payment system , I think it's human nature in response to the reduction of exposure to potential risk , in other words the more decoupled sub you get the narrower potential unit of margin you are prepared to accept , with today's machinery,high collateral values and low interest rates the amount of physical work one can do is not the limiting factor it was to previous generations . This treadmill benefits everyone in the system apart from the producer and the tax payer and has lead to the value the industry has in the eyes of the public .

I would go further than that. The way subsidies were implemented has driven the industry in a way that puts it at odds with the environment and the consumer and possibly even animal welfare. Without a doubt, land that would never have been brought into production except in wartime has been because government money made it possible. Then comes the inevitable seed, fert and spray spend which is helpfully diverted into the pockets of international companies. Then food entered an oversupply situation and retailers profited from it the most, leaving food ridiculously cheap and this has given rise to insane amounts of food waste and consumers who don't know how to cook or even select a healthy diet. Fast forward a bit and the food industry is now poisoning people with insane levels of sugar, salt, fats and processed carp. Can anyone hand on heart tell me that they can see a win in any of this?

 

[digger64]

[QUOTEisn't lie989898, post: 7151474, member: 54866"]
I would go further than that. The way subsidies were implemented has driven the industry in a way that puts it at odds with the environment and the consumer and possibly even animal welfare. Without a doubt, land that would never have been brought into production except in wartime has been because government money made it possible. Then comes the inevitable seed, fert and spray spend which is helpfully diverted into the pockets of international companies. Then food entered an oversupply situation and retailers profited from it the most, leaving food ridiculously cheap and this has given rise to insane amounts of food waste and consumers who don't know how to cook or even select a healthy diet. Fast forward a bit and the food industry is now poisoning people with insane levels of sugar, salt, fats and processed carp. Can anyone hand on heart tell me that they can see a win in any of this?
[/QUOTE]
There isnt a win but noone wants take the hit in land values or change of lifestyle ,

 

[livestock 1]

Have you not understood a word I have said?

Yes I realise you’ve changed your mind

 

[ajd132]

Yes I realise you’ve changed your mind

I have not changed my mind on anything...

 

[Henarar]

I would go further than that. The way subsidies were implemented has driven the industry in a way that puts it at odds with the environment and the consumer and possibly even animal welfare. Without a doubt, land that would never have been brought into production except in wartime has been because government money made it possible

There is plenty of land around here that was fields in the 1800's but has been woodland since and we have had two world wars since that, you can still see the hedgelines if you know where to look, it must have been profitable to farm at one time

 

[devonbeef]

man

It’s probably very difficult for an outsider to understand. Some farmers use the sub to buy flash cars, helicopters, holidays etc whilst the others are actually using it to produce food.

many use it (smaller farmers) to buy things to run/ operate which puts the money back into the whole working part of the rural economy .This always seems to be forgotten.feeding the country and providing employment

 

[devonbeef]

man

many use it (smaller farmers) to buy things to run/ operate which puts the money back into the whole working part of the rural economy .This always seems to be forgotten.feeding the country and providing employment

if the price was not driven down by the government support supermarket cartel we would not need it.thats reality

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

You really dont understand it do you , everything you say is correct, but you don't seem to see how these situations and this trading environment/ treadmill is created by the payment system , I think it's human nature in response to the reduction of exposure to potential risk , in other words the more decoupled sub you get the narrower potential unit of margin you are prepared to accept , with today's machinery,high collateral values and low interest rates the amount of physical work one can do is not the limiting factor it was to previous generations . This treadmill benefits everyone in the system apart from the producer and the tax payer and has lead to the low value the industry has in the eyes of the public .

You are dead on

 

[ajd132]

You really dont understand it do you , everything you say is correct, but you don't seem to see how these situations and this trading environment/ treadmill is created by the payment system , I think it's human nature in response to the reduction of exposure to potential risk , in other words the more decoupled sub you get the narrower potential unit of margin you are prepared to accept , with today's machinery,high collateral values and low interest rates the amount of physical work one can do is not the limiting factor it was to previous generations . This treadmill benefits everyone in the system apart from the producer and the tax payer and has lead to the low value the industry has in the eyes of the public .

This is exactly what I’ve been trying to make them understand. Spot on.

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

What do you mean lack of supply? Can you be more specific, lack of supply of what exactly?

What he means is that farmers won't be able to let stuff go cheap when they no longer have the subsidy to make up the shortfall. So supply of agricultural produce, I think is what he means.

Of course we shouldn't be letting stuff go cheap anyway.....

 

[digger64]

This is exactly what I’ve been trying to make them understand. Spot on.

Thank you , a comment on countryfile really made me think , it was the program about Somerleyton , they had flooded some arable marshes for birds ( very near me) , the presenter said what was this land before they flooded it ? The manager said" it was just wheat and beans " to which the presenter replied "so basically it was just nothing then" . This sums up how the public value our work and while this system exists that is what we have to expect and accept that we can just be bought as the public is effectively the tenant and is paying the RENT .

 

[farmerm]

thats exactly my point - its not FARMERS that are subsidised in the uk its the LANDLORDS

by all means support farmers but supporting land owvers is VERY messed up and farmers suffer as a result vs farners overseas thst as you say often are directly subsidised and whom we have to compete against

I knew the day that they announced agricultural payments would be area based would be the start of the end of UK farm subs. What has really surprised me was how long payment to land owners for owning land has been allowed to continue.

Clive is only so keen for agricultural subs to be removed because it will reduce his massive tax bill

 

[egbert]

What do you mean lack of supply? Can you be more specific, lack of supply of what exactly?

Processors reliant on running their plants on convenient supply of raw materials will be a bit stuffed when the primary producers go out of business - or, as is more likely, mothball production and find other income streams.

Whether you or Clive like it or not, the subsidy system spreads it's influence far and wide, affecting far more than those wicked rich landowners.

 

[ajd132]

Processors reliant on running their plants on convenient supply of raw materials will be a bit stuffed when the primary producers go out of business - or, as is more likely, mothball production and find other income streams.

Whether you or Clive like it or not, the subsidy system spreads it's influence far and wide, affecting far more than those wicked rich landowners.

I’m terms of combineables, if someone can’t make money without subs on a bought and paid for/inherited farm they should give up.

 

[deleted user 837354]

Processors reliant on running their plants on convenient supply of raw materials will be a bit stuffed when the primary producers go out of business - or, as is more likely, mothball production and find other income streams.

Whether you or Clive like it or not, the subsidy system spreads it's influence far and wide, affecting far more than those wicked rich landowners.

Again, could you be more specific?

The loss of subsides will make fudge all difference to the dairy industry around here as far as I can see.

Which 'raw materials' are you describing? Which processors?

 

[Henarar]

Again, could you be more specific?

The loss of subsides will make fudge all difference to the dairy industry around here as far as I can see.

Which 'raw materials' are you describing? Which processors?

Some dairy farmers always seem to be on the moan that they are not making much, take away 80 odd quid an acre in profit and they will make less, say they have 300 acres where is the shortfall going to come from ?
Yes I know about what you have said about it not being much of their turnover but we all know that turnover is just vanity

 

[egbert]

Again, could you be more specific?

The loss of subsides will make fudge all difference to the dairy industry around here as far as I can see.

Which 'raw materials' are you describing? Which processors?

BPS makes up- so I'm told- summat like 5% of a typical dairy turnover (would that be right?)
So as long as they're in front by more than that much...no it won't make a whole lot of difference.
That said...tell me why so many small dairy farmers are gone lately?
More will surely go.....

As for beef and sheep.... most systems are running at a net loss (and I'm sure you'd have noticed, being such a fart smeller)
...so it's reasonable to guess that, if the market doesn't change, and subs went, a lot would have major changes to make ...or they'd go bust. Simple as.

I suspect there's a significant drop in production coming over the hill -one thing taken with another.
And that will mean real falls in business activity in both processors of beef and lamb as well as a host of ancillary benefactors of the sub system.

It's a matter of fact that many farm businesses pour a lot of the subs into the pot...meaning it gets spent.
The local tractor dealers, feed mills, 4x4 suppliers, fencing contractors, insurance brokers, cowmen/shepherds/market staff.... a host of folk, will miss those millions when they're gone.

It doesn't bother me much, because I've a track record of furtively running profitable businesses aside from farming............I'm only spelling it out for those that don't see past the headlines.

 

[deleted user 837354]

BPS makes up- so I'm told- summat like 5% of a typical dairy turnover (would that be right?)
So as long as they're in front by more than that much...no it won't make a whole lot of difference.
That said...tell me why so many small dairy farmers are gone lately?
More will surely go.....

As for beef and sheep.... most systems are running at a net loss (and I'm sure you'd have noticed, being such a fart smeller)
...so it's reasonable to guess that, if the market doesn't change, and subs went, a lot would have major changes to make ...or they'd go bust. Simple as.

I suspect there's a significant drop in production coming over the hill -one thing taken with another.
And that will mean real falls in business activity in both processors of beef and lamb as well as a host of ancillary benefactors of the sub system.

It's a matter of fact that many farm businesses pour a lot of the subs into the pot...meaning it gets spent.
The local tractor dealers, feed mills, 4x4 suppliers, fencing contractors, insurance brokers, cowmen/shepherds/market staff.... a host of folk, will miss those millions when they're gone.

It doesn't bother me much, because I've a track record of furtively running profitable businesses aside from farming............I'm only spelling it out for those that don't see past the headlines.

Tractor dealers, feed mills, 4x4 suppliers.. etc, etc... I see. So big companies coining it in from monies paid by the tax payer is your justification.

Small farms disappearing has been happening all over the world for decades. The numbers of people employed in agriculture and similar industries has declined, too. I've lost count of the number of consolidations and mergers or buy outs in the ancillary industries as well.

Where is this rule book that states any of the above should remain the same? The UK has lost pubs and hotels by the score, car dealerships, petrol stations, shops, you name it. Why is agriculture different?

 

[7610 super q]

Tractor dealers, feed mills, 4x4 suppliers.. etc, etc... I see. So big companies coining it in from monies paid by the tax payer is your justification.

Small farms disappearing has been happening all over the world for decades. The numbers of people employed in agriculture and similar industries has declined, too. I've lost count of the number of consolidations and mergers or buy outs in the ancillary industries as well.

Where is this rule book that states any of the above should remain the same? The UK has lost pubs and hotels by the score, car dealerships, petrol stations, shops, you name it. Why is agriculture different?

Well, I venture to suggest it would be relatively easy building more hotels / petrol stations that have been lost, but recreating a patchwork of small family farms with small fields / meadows / hedgerows ? Lost forever. In our lifetime.
I completely agree with you about subsidies, the CAP has ruined UK agriculture over the last 40 years. But there it is. I note a comment above " If you can't make money from owner occupied land....", well we do make money, but more money from subs is better now we're stuck in the '70's price rut. No subs at all and 21st century prices better still......
I don't get this big is best, economies of scale business either. Most of the large dairy farms round here were heading for sh!t creek when the corvid price drop came 6 months ago. All forgotten already thanks to dairy farmer support schemes etc.

 

[Henarar]

Well, I venture to suggest it would be relatively easy building more hotels / petrol stations that have been lost, but recreating a patchwork of small family farms with small fields / meadows / hedgerows ? Lost forever. In our lifetime.
I completely agree with you about subsidies, the CAP has ruined UK agriculture over the last 40 years. But there it is. I note a comment above " If you can't make money from owner occupied land....", well we do make money, but more money from subs is better now we're stuck in the '70's price rut. No subs at all and 21st century prices better still......
I don't get this big is best, economies of scale business either. Most of the large dairy farms round here were heading for sh!t creek when the corvid price drop came 6 months ago. All forgotten already thanks to dairy farmer support schemes etc.

As I said they are always first to moan at a price drop and with no fall back will they be so good as olly thinks
anyway the money is not going its changing, we adapted before and will again