Choice , 20 , 100 cow family run farms or one 2000 plus dairy farm ?

[Bossfarmer]

surely economies of scale do exist for the big dairies, take a 2000 guy with 4 500 cow units, the same silage kit, tractormen slurry equipment etc are likely shared between all 4 units, the cost per cow is likely to be a fraction of that on a 100 cow herd, the owners house mortgage/bills/personal drawings will be pennies per cow and the cost per cow in labour etc is bound to be less milking 70 in a rotary that 20 odd at a time through a traditional parlour?

 

[Goweresque]

the owners house mortgage/bills/personal drawings will be pennies per cow

Really?

'Pennies' for each of 2000 cows in my world equals no more than £1980 (on the assumption that pennies can mean no more than 99p, as anything larger is into the pounds). Good luck with paying your mortgage, bills and living expenses out of that..................you aren't a US TV newsreader are you, they seem to have similar problems with basic numeracy:

Brian Williams And An MSNBC Guest Did Some Very Bad Math On The Bloomberg Campaign

<i>Could</i> Mike Bloomberg have given us all $1 million each with the money he spent running for president??

www.buzzfeednews.com

 

[Dead Rabbits]

No matter which way you do the sums, you will end up at 1 fte to 100 cows, with 2 for the first 100
So the labour thing makes no difference

Cows per full time person can be deceiving. Should probably look at output. We run over 100 per person even if you want to include replacement rearing and administration. Relatively low output though. At certain times of the year we can comfortably run everything with 5 people. If I could actually find competent people to outsource all the repairs I do we could go lower. Or if we had any automation we could drop a person no problem.

 

[Dead Rabbits]

whats best for the countryside ,economy, environment and farming generally, 20 family run 100 cow fardairy farms or 1 2000 plus mega dairy farm? where will it end next a 6000 cow plus?

Likely the best thing for rural economies is keeping people on the land. This is not happening however. The people aren’t coming back. It’s been a trend for centuries. Sons and daughters have been leaving for urban areas to work in other industries. It’s the great American brain drain. Any bright mind is encouraged to go to university, and not for agriculture. Our rural population is rapidly disappearing and what is left are large operations that seem to export the money from the area rather than recycle back through.

Consolidation will continue at pace but will be different in different areas. A lot of the UK is ill suited to efficient large single units. So likely there will be more medium sized units owned by the same person. In some areas that are suited to large units, that’s what will be there.

The large operators over here don’t add numbers to a farm. They just buy another farm and build another 2-8k cow facility.

 

[buffalo_soldier]

Won't be much of an option if some of the current license to farm proposals become enshrined.

Ongoing costs of that will mean smaller herds are doomed.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

whats best for the countryside ,economy, environment and farming generally, 20 family run 100 cow fardairy farms or 1 2000 plus mega dairy farm? where will it end next a 6000 cow plus?

2000 profitable dairy cows is obviously better than 2000 unprofitable dairy cows, for the economy.
Whether the fences are boundary fences or not is inconsequential, so long as there is sufficient profit flowing for those involved to spend freely.

I take it you don't like the larger farms, by your loaded question? Why is that?

 

[bluebell]

in an ideal world no? how big is large ? when an industry loses numbers it loses many things, one major one being power ? second the supply chain that built up supporting the many individual farms, vets pack up, markets, the choice of were you buy from gets less ? the cattle feed suppliers i used ring up for a price say from 20 years ago have all packed up? in the UK on certain TV programs you get conflicting views , one view is new entrants theres a shortage of ? i wonder why ? could it be down to the work and effort , struggle, for you might or might not earn ?

 

[kiwi pom]

in an ideal world no? how big is large ? when an industry loses numbers it loses many things, one major one being power ? second the supply chain that built up supporting the many individual farms, vets pack up, markets, the choice of were you buy from gets less ? the cattle feed suppliers i used ring up for a price say from 20 years ago have all packed up? in the UK on certain TV programs you get conflicting views , one view is new entrants theres a shortage of ? i wonder why ? could it be down to the work and effort , struggle, for you might or might not earn ?

I think I know what you're getting at but you've picked a bad example in dairy farms. Either way you still have 2000 cows so inputs, output, people involved and the environmental impact is much the same, you've just removed 19 farmers and replaced them with 19 employees (assuming we're talking high output permanent housed). The farm would have 1 fulltime vet instead of a vet with a practice and 20 customers etc.

Perhaps a better example would be 20 small mixed farms with a large variety of crops, cattle, sheep, pigs, a small dairy unit, chickens or a few turkeys for Christmas etc. Each place would be very busy, perhaps have staff and need an army of support companies.

Replace that with one farmer - maybe contract farming for a few land owners that want to still qualify as farmers - a direct drill, sprayer and combine with one or two staff, growing the minimum number of crops they need for the government handouts.
I'd be more likely to agree with you then.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

in an ideal world no? how big is large ? when an industry loses numbers it loses many things, one major one being power ? second the supply chain that built up supporting the many individual farms, vets pack up, markets, the choice of were you buy from gets less ? the cattle feed suppliers i used ring up for a price say from 20 years ago have all packed up? in the UK on certain TV programs you get conflicting views , one view is new entrants theres a shortage of ? i wonder why ? could it be down to the work and effort , struggle, for you might or might not earn ?

I can see your point.
I'd have to point out that the reason agricultural practioners have such little strength is a lack of unity, and smallholders with a hundred cows have much less cohesion/ collaboration/ power because (to use your examples) you have ten operations competing for the resources of one.
You have ten deaf musicians all playing the same song without a conductor, in effect.

This 'inbetweeny' scale of operation is the most risky, in my opinion and experience.

A true smallholder with 3 acres can have a very diverse operation with multiple income streams per labour unit,, they can enter into the areas where the returns are high (retail) and a true specialist requires scale and effectiveness to be immune from market fluctuations, but one or two hundred acres of sole dairy is neither of the above?

As for entry into business ownership, without a clear plan it's very difficult to buy in from farming profits alone, but as a salaried employee it is doable. I did.
It means a hefty mortgage in our case, but there is no way forward as a one-trick-pony for us.

The economics of commodity production don't favour producers of any size, diversification of enterprises can mean doing several things poorly, it can mean doing some things well at the expense of others, but I believe it's silly for anyone to assume big farms or little farms are making no return based on scale alone.

 

[Dead Rabbits]

I can see your point.
I'd have to point out that the reason agricultural practioners have such little strength is a lack of unity, and smallholders with a hundred cows have much less cohesion/ collaboration/ power because (to use your examples) you have ten operations competing for the resources of one.
You have ten deaf musicians all playing the same song without a conductor, in effect.

This 'inbetweeny' scale of operation is the most risky, in my opinion and experience.

A true smallholder with 3 acres can have a very diverse operation with multiple income streams per labour unit,, they can enter into the areas where the returns are high (retail) and a true specialist requires scale and effectiveness to be immune from market fluctuations, but one or two hundred acres of sole dairy is neither of the above?

As for entry into business ownership, without a clear plan it's very difficult to buy in from farming profits alone, but as a salaried employee it is doable. I did.
It means a hefty mortgage in our case, but there is no way forward as a one-trick-pony for us.

The economics of commodity production don't favour producers of any size, diversification of enterprises can mean doing several things poorly, it can mean doing some things well at the expense of others, but I believe it's silly for anyone to assume big farms or little farms are making no return based on scale alone.

The middle is a sh!t place to be

 

[Kiwi Pete]

The middle is a sh!t place to be

As Kit Pharo said, the "average" human has one boob and one testicle.
There is little to be gained by attempting to be the world's smallest commodity producer....

 

[unlacedgecko]

As Kit Pharo said, the "average" human has one boob and one testicle.

I’d literally get nothing done.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I’d literally get nothing done.

Welcome to my world. I don't even need the boob to blow the doors off getting not much done

 

[toquark]

surely economies of scale do exist for the big dairies, take a 2000 guy with 4 500 cow units, the same silage kit, tractormen slurry equipment etc are likely shared between all 4 units, the cost per cow is likely to be a fraction of that on a 100 cow herd, the owners house mortgage/bills/personal drawings will be pennies per cow and the cost per cow in labour etc is bound to be less milking 70 in a rotary that 20 odd at a time through a traditional parlour?

Some economies of scale will be there for sure but how easy is it for a 2000 cow herd to quickly scale back in reaction to market dips when staff/feed/fuel overheads for a fully indoor herd are proportionately massive and - importantly - more or less fixed? A 100 cow family unit can just reign in a bit and reduce drawings. As far as I can tell this is how they've managed to survive for as long - they can weather the storms better.

 

[Bossfarmer]

Some economies of scale will be there for sure but how easy is it for a 2000 cow herd to quickly scale back in reaction to market dips when staff/feed/fuel overheads for a fully indoor herd are proportionately massive and - importantly - more or less fixed? A 100 cow family unit can just reign in a bit and reduce drawings. As far as I can tell this is how they've managed to survive for as long - they can weather the storms better.

its been done, a big guy in sw scotland went out of it a few years ago then straight back in when he got a new contract, kept all his heifers

 

[Lowland1]

I know it's not really answering the question but we managed a farm in the Sudan that started with 2000 cows and moved up to 6000 cows it was state of the art and the cows were incredibly well fed and looked after ( we did the arable not the dairy) .In Kenya I have seen people with a single dairy cow from which they derive their income mistreat it to the point of death so I would say it depends on the farmer. My mum used to be a milk recorder for the MMB and I remember going to a farm with 400 cows in the late 70's and the farmer knew the name not number of every cow so there is nothing wrong with large herds it depends on who is looking after them.