Farm Compare - beta testers required

[snipe]

I’ll give it a go. If it’s coming from a buying group do you just want the groups name or the company they are using ?

 

[fingermouse]

I would be keen to be part of this ,serviced agronomy at present

 

[Clive]

Ok - we have more than enough testers now thanks

Will be in touch with those that volunteered later today with instruction and links

Thanks everyone

 

[Clive]

I’ll give it a go. If it’s coming from a buying group do you just want the groups name or the company they are using ?

Good question ! Do you always know where where it’s coming from when buying via a group ?

My feeling is yes we would ideally ask group and supplier in such a case

Questions like this is exactly why we need beta testers at this stage, try as we might don’t always think through all situations so thanks for the valuable feedback

 

[PSQ]

This is a double edged sword:

‘Someone I Know’ put some prices on the existing ‘chemical price tracker’, and within 24 hours his supplier had been phoned by the manufacturer demanding to know why the hell he was undercutting the suggested price...

So what is to stop the chemical manufacturers/ distributors using this website to ***hunt out*** those retailers breaking ranks with the ‘list price’, and brow beat them into raising prices?

-not because they are selling cheap, but because your website is lifting the wool from the eyes of the other 95% of farmers paying full whack. It’s going to pi$$ off a lot of the big names, and there’s going to be a lot of pressure exerted to make sure that the worst of the eye gouging manufacturers, distributors and retailers don’t have to cut prices to compete.

Anyone seen to be selling ‘cheap’ will be nailed to a cross. Us farmers won’t see it, as the corporate bullying will go on behind closed doors, but what we will see is the ‘good deals’ suddenly vanish...

So much for ‘free trade’ and healthy competition

 

[milkloss]

This is a double edged sword:

‘Someone I Know’ put some prices on the existing ‘chemical price tracker’, and within 24 hours his supplier had been phoned by the manufacturer demanding to know why the hell he was undercutting the suggested price...

So what is to stop the chemical manufacturers/ distributors using this website to ***hunt out*** those retailers breaking ranks with the ‘list price’, and brow beat them into raising prices?

-not because they are selling cheap, but because your website is lifting the wool from the eyes of the other 95% of farmers paying full whack. It’s going to pi$$ off a lot of the big names, and there’s going to be a lot of pressure exerted to make sure that the worst of the eye gouging manufacturers, distributors and retailers don’t have to cut prices to compete.

Anyone seen to be selling ‘cheap’ will be nailed to a cross. Us farmers won’t see it, as the corporate bullying will go on behind closed doors, but what we will see is the ‘good deals’ suddenly vanish...

So much for ‘free trade’ and healthy competition

Fair point. The only possible way I can see around that is to limit access to TFF members with a suitable posting history.

 

[Clive]

This is a double edged sword:

‘Someone I Know’ put some prices on the existing ‘chemical price tracker’, and within 24 hours his supplier had been phoned by the manufacturer demanding to know why the hell he was undercutting the suggested price...

So what is to stop the chemical manufacturers/ distributors using this website to ***hunt out*** those retailers breaking ranks with the ‘list price’, and brow beat them into raising prices?

-not because they are selling cheap, but because your website is lifting the wool from the eyes of the other 95% of farmers paying full whack. It’s going to pi$$ off a lot of the big names, and there’s going to be a lot of pressure exerted to make sure that the worst of the eye gouging manufacturers, distributors and retailers don’t have to cut prices to compete.

Anyone seen to be selling ‘cheap’ will be nailed to a cross. Us farmers won’t see it, as the corporate bullying will go on behind closed doors, but what we will see is the ‘good deals’ suddenly vanish...

So much for ‘free trade’ and healthy competition

We have ideas to cover this issue

First and foremost it will be 100% anon = there will be no possible way to identify anyone submitting prices

Price information will only be shared with those that contribute and they will be conformed as farmers


My understanding of this market is that the manufactures are not the issue here, its distributors that cause a lot of the problems and price differences, they are all in competition with each other so frankly will happily cut each others throats to shift more volume. Being the best priced seller on Farm Compare will generate you a lot of sales and they are in business to sell !

 

[PSQ]

Fair point. The only possible way I can see around that is to limit access to TFF members with a suitable posting history.

1- Because ‘Mr Farmer’ will ask his supplying agronomist to match the prices he’s seen online, and at that point ‘Mr Agronomist’ will note down the name of the lower cost supplier and forward it to the manufacturer, with the suggestion that they need taken into a dark room and ‘re-educated’...

2- There are a few ‘supply agronomists’ who also farm, who are also on here, who make more money from commissions and bonuses than they do from farming, and who know which master they’d rather please.

 

[Johnnyboxer]

We have ideas to cover this issue

First and foremost it will be 100% anon = there will be no possible way to identify anyone submitting prices

Price information will only be shared with those that contribute and they will be conformed as farmers


My understanding of this market is that the manufactures are not the issue here, its distributors that cause a lot of the problems and price differences, they are all in competition with each other so frankly will happily cut each others throats to shift more volume. Being the best priced seller on Farm Compare will generate you a lot of sales and they are in business to sell !

What is in place for anyone (how are you checking 'conformed' farmers) to input fictitious lower prices just for the hell of it ??

 

[Clive]

I am up for it clive

I'll give it a go.

I’m up for trying it too.

Happy to share. Count me in.

Ps, as I’m on services agronomy (but seriously looking at moving away from it!) I wouldn’t mind getting involved with the beta version and putting some prices in. Thanks

I'm happy to be part of the beta test, cant seem to PM anyone though.

I’m keen to try this.

I would like to be part of this please

I'm in, let me know what to do.

Can I be part of it as well

I’ll give it a go. If it’s coming from a buying group do you just want the groups name or the company they are using ?

I would be keen to be part of this ,serviced agronomy at present

Ok - All of you that responded before the cut off post plus those that PM'ed me have been added to the Beta testing user group

A new sub forum has been created where you can find information about what we would like you to do and contains the link to v1 of the price entry form

you will see that forum on the TFF home page or you can follow this link directly to it https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?forums/farmcompare/

 

[Clive]

1- Because ‘Mr Farmer’ will ask his supplying agronomist to match the prices he’s seen online, and at that point ‘Mr Agronomist’ will note down the name of the lower cost supplier and forward it to the manufacturer, with the suggestion that they need taken into a dark room and ‘re-educated’...

2- There are a few ‘supply agronomists’ who also farm, who are also on here, who make more money from commissions and bonuses than they do from farming, and who know which master they’d rather please.

Reality is that manufacturers have very little control over the prices just as us farmers have no control over what supermarkets sell our products for

distributors are competing and all want max volume so will compete


not to mention that even a single shred of evidence of what you suggest could happen would result in a massive fine, its illegal


our intention is simply to provide farmers with information upon which that can base their decision upon, from what we have all seen on various TFF thread the variation in prices is huge

 

[Clive]

What is in place for anyone (how are you checking 'conformed' farmers) to input fictitious lower prices just for the hell of it ??

we have that covered - there are 2 kinds of prices we will use and segregate - "verified" and "claimed" - if you submit verified prices then you will see verified prices, if you submit claimed you wil see claimed


the underlying principle of this is all users get out of it exactly what they put into it

 

[Chris F]

This is a double edged sword:

‘Someone I Know’ put some prices on the existing ‘chemical price tracker’, and within 24 hours his supplier had been phoned by the manufacturer demanding to know why the hell he was undercutting the suggested price...

So what is to stop the chemical manufacturers/ distributors using this website to ***hunt out*** those retailers breaking ranks with the ‘list price’, and brow beat them into raising prices?

-not because they are selling cheap, but because your website is lifting the wool from the eyes of the other 95% of farmers paying full whack. It’s going to pi$$ off a lot of the big names, and there’s going to be a lot of pressure exerted to make sure that the worst of the eye gouging manufacturers, distributors and retailers don’t have to cut prices to compete.

Anyone seen to be selling ‘cheap’ will be nailed to a cross. Us farmers won’t see it, as the corporate bullying will go on behind closed doors, but what we will see is the ‘good deals’ suddenly vanish...

So much for ‘free trade’ and healthy competition

Manufacturers

Price fixing is illegal in the UK and Europe - https://www.gov.uk/cartels-price-fixing

The fine is 10% of global turnover. If you think a company like BASF, Bayer, Corteva or any manufacturer are going to be involved in price fixing in the UK and risk a GLOBAL turnover fine, you are mad.

The whole UK Ag Chems market is worth roughly €0.820 billion a year (€820 million)

BASF - €70.4 billion global sales - their fine would be €7 billion or 9 times the whole UK market or 50 times their UK sales.
Bayer - €40 billion in global sales - their fine would be €4 billion or 5 times tyhe whole UK market

There is no way any board member would contemplate this sort of risk vs reward. Also as far as I am aware, there is no concept of "list price" in crop protection products.

Distributors

There are already the big 5/6 and then a whole host of smaller companies and buying Groups. There is plenty of competition in this market and prices will already vary through the season and we have all seen hedging happens on certain chemicals too.

Plus again - pirce fixing is illegal as per above link.

Many of the 'good deals' I have seen this year have been from Frontier and Agrii.

So there is plenty of healthy competition in the market and the best deals are often from buying at the right time, not from any single supplier. That is how buying groups get good deals for their members.

While you are right, price tranparency may not be popular with distributors, it is also inevitable so there is not reason they should fear it. All supermarkets price everything and they all still survive as they have different selling points and it isn;t all just about price.

If it pisses them off, so be it. We are building this for farmers. Getting angry in business is rarely productive, they should be working out how to use system like this to sell better. And I'm sure they already are.

And if you think we aren't taking anonymity seriously then have a read of the paper we are basing the maths and averaging on: http://www.utdallas.edu/~muratk/cou...Anonymization Using Clustering Techniques.pdf

 

[Bluetooth]

Is this more or less going to be along the lines of the farmers business network in USA?

 

[Chris F]

Is this more or less going to be along the lines of the farmers business network in USA?

Not quite. FBN is more like a Farm Marketplace as it actually sells the ag chems and has transparent pricing. However it has a membership fee of $700 a year which Farm Marketplace doesn't have. It then has a further charge if you want a credit account. So you have to be a paidf up member to see the prices, so they aren't that tansparent, whereas anyone can see the prices on Farm Marketplace.

Farm Compare will have a similar price comparison algorithm in it as FBN though. So FBN seems to be a hybrid of a buying group, Farm Marketplace and Farm Compare. Farm Compare is a free service for farmers that contribute prices.

 

[Clive]

FBN is just a buying group then basically

 

[SilliamWhale]

Will we only see the prices of the products we submit?

As a beta tester who submits prices you will see all the price data in a very raw thread style

when we get the search engine / page and app working (8 -12 weeks is the dev plan) for every product price you share you will get to search for price info on 1 other product (any product) of your choice. So the more you share the more you benefit ................. fair trade - information for information

Farmers actuality working together for once to get us all better deals !

So lets say I was looking for an SDHI spray for my wheat at T2 - I priced up some Aviator and Adexar with my local chaps and inputted that data. Would I not be able to find out the going price of Ascra or Elatus unless I'd quoted for it as well?

If that is the case I think there is going to be a limitation here somewhere. I understand why you want everyone on board to share all prices which I support but I may be missing out on another good value product with similar actives to what I want but I'm not even aware of it, let alone a good deal. I think you may need to develop a way of reducing the specificity of some of it because otherwise you may not get enough info to share and build the information you want so quickly either.

 

[Chris F]

So lets say I was looking for an SDHI spray for my wheat at T2 - I priced up some Aviator and Adexar with my local chaps and inputted that data. Would I not be able to find out the going price of Ascra or Elatus unless I'd quoted for it as well?

If that is the case I think there is going to be a limitation here somewhere. I understand why you want everyone on board to share all prices which I support but I may be missing out on another good value product with similar actives to what I want but I'm not even aware of it, let alone a good deal. I think you may need to develop a way of reducing the specificity of some of it because otherwise you may not get enough info to share and build the information you want so quickly either.

No - you can look up the prices for other products too. But the amount of others things you can look up depends on the amount of pirces you submit. If you only submit 1 price then you can;t expect to search 500 others options. So what you put in you get out.

 

[juke]

@Chris F when will the search option be going live ?

 

[Chris F]

@Chris F when will the search option be going live ?

Thats a good question, its quite a bit of software to build and we are just sitting down with the developer again this morning. We are hoping by the autumn for that buying season.

Until they we will publish the results in the private forum that has been created for contributors and we will widen these numbers in due course.